Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

[5ekyu]

Decent game has nothing to do with rules. A good DM can run a game in the worst rpg and have the players cheering for more.

Obvioulsy, we were talking about the rules being **used** in actual play, in actual impacting player choices - not the printed rules of an rpg system.

In my experience decent game and rules the gm uses and how much of the world makes sense internally vs "because i said so" have an awful lot to do with each other. They are intrinsically linked.

When i have seen myself GMs run good games with bad "RPG systems" and get great success it has always involved choosing to remove or alter the bad rules that would otherwise get in the way of fun - either by actual stated house rules, on the fly handwaving or even just choosing to emphasize encounters, challenges and setting elements that push the bad rules to the side and spotlight the good rules more. The rules that serve up more fun are shown more, the rules that hurt fun more dont get as much screen time if any.

I suspect thats what you categorize as "good gm" and is likely a big part of his results.

 

[smbakeresq]

The only thing I require to Multiclass is a good reason and explanation on how it fits into your PC background and development.

For example, it makes sense to start as Barbarian and then take professional training (MC as a fighter.). It does not make sense to start as a fighter and then become barbaric unless somehow the PC lives with a tribe, or befriends a barbarian who teaches him to focus his rage, or something like that.

I am real big on PC background and life development and will greatly aid players that put the time and effort in.

 

[5ekyu]

The only thing I require to Multiclass is a good reason and explanation on how it fits into your PC background and development.

For example, it makes sense to start as Barbarian and then take professional training (MC as a fighter.). It does not make sense to start as a fighter and then become barbaric unless somehow the PC lives with a tribe, or befriends a barbarian who teaches him to focus his rage, or something like that.

I am real big on PC background and life development and will greatly aid players that put the time and effort in.

Exactly.

I dont pre-ban any MC that meets the rules.

I may or may not allow specific character options that are megally permitted by the rules in general if they are concretely inappropriate for the current situation.

If you want a warlock swerve, establish in your background and play a connection and series of experiences that plants the seeds of a patron- hook-up that can bloom when both appropriate and desired.

A man raised in barbie tribe, relocated to civilized and trained fighter, who then rediscovers his heritage is a classic story of myth and fiction with many real world analogs to draw on. Insert a dramatic event to create the right timing and viola.

Or you could just say "no because i said so..." But there's a lot of very fertile fun lost in that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Again, how?

A Paladin 5 attacks 2/round, so, right off the bat, he's doubling the damage output of this character. Never minding having 6 smites/day plus whatever subclass powers and additional lay on hands. How is your AC any better than a normal Paladin? Full plate and shield plus, maybe Shield of Faith (which the 5th level pally can cast anyway). Nothing clerics or druids get at 1st and 2nd level really boosts AC.

I'm sorry, but, again, I'm really, really not seeing it. Your group must have been incredibly ineffective if the strongest DPR character in the group is this one. Good grief, a 5th level Champion would put this character to shame and that's probably the weakest DPR character in the game.

we didn't have a 5th level paladin to compare it to, that game had 6 of us 5 players (all started at 5th and made it to 9th before imploding) and a DM

I was a Paladin Druid Cleric (I started 2/1/2, and ended 2/1/6)
We had:
a halfling Great Old One Sword pact Warlock 7/fighter 2 (he only picked fighter levels in play)
a dwarf Beastmaster Ranger 9
a human (variant) Fighter/Rogue (I can't remember which was 3rd level to start) ended 4/5 eldritch knight mastermind
a human (reg phb) shadow monk 5 who ended as a shadow monk 6 shadow sorcerer 3

the warlock had almost no GOOD spells even in the end, he basically counted on eldritch blast, the fighter rogue at the end was close to me but that was it. The only person making multi attacks was the monk, and the ranger (but his stupid bird almost never hit)

I had wooden breastplate armor and a shield and an +2 dex +1 fighting style so I had a 19 same as the monk one worse then the fighter/rogue in mithril plate with a shield (But he didn't get that until near the end of the campaign)

I would use the druid cantrip Shillelagh to use my wisdom to hit and damage with melee weapon, since that made me the highest melee stat in the game that already gave me DPR, but I also had a +1 club that was droped as 1st treasure so I was also up by that. +4 wis, +2 prof +1 magic gave me a +7 to pretty much start the game. I had lay on hands and smite(fully powered with 2nd level spells) and the healing/life domain made my healing better so every night before bed I cast goodberry uped in level with every slot so out of combat I had tons of healing unless I used up all my slots. (in the end my 4th level good berry healed 1+6 or 7hp per berry 10 berries, so if we took 1 day to travel I had 20 7hp berries to give out plus 30 6hp plus 40 5hp plus 40 4hp...so almost 700hp out of combat healing).


edit: player of the warlock was PISSED that he didn't have a way to attack with cha but I had a way to attack with WIS, so he did go more ranged with eldritch blast that did come close to being as good, he would attack twice with +4 cha +2 prof to deal 1d10 or 1d10+1d6 if he hexed. but to be honest +6 to hit 1d10 damage didn't feel anywhere near +7 to hit 1d8+5 damage and can drop a spell to add 3d8 radiant damage.

 

[smbakeresq]

Exactly.

I dont pre-ban any MC that meets the rules.

I may or may not allow specific character options that are megally permitted by the rules in general if they are concretely inappropriate for the current situation.

If you want a warlock swerve, establish in your background and play a connection and series of experiences that plants the seeds of a patron- hook-up that can bloom when both appropriate and desired.

A man raised in barbie tribe, relocated to civilized and trained fighter, who then rediscovers his heritage is a classic story of myth and fiction with many real world analogs to draw on. Insert a dramatic event to create the right timing and viola.

Or you could just say "no because i said so..." But there's a lot of very fertile fun lost in that.

The HexBlade spam is ridiculous. Test your players and ask them if they read these parts:

"You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell—a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting. Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she and the force are one and that the weapons, along with hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends."

To me it seems such a pact would never be granted to a good aligned PC (unless to subvert the PC) nor would any good aligned PC search them out. Using the tools to "manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends" to me means the hexblade probably wouldn't play well with others.

I am not even sure the Pact creature would continue to grant the Pacts benefits if you multiclass just to dip as:

"A pact can range from a loose agreement to a formal contract with lengthy, detailed clauses and lists of requirements. The terms of a pact—what a warlock must do to receive a patron’s favor—are always dictated by the patron. On occasion, those terms include a special proviso that might seem odd or whimsical, but warlocks take these dictates as seriously as they do the other requirements of their pacts. Does your character have a pact that requires you to change your behavior in an unusual or seemingly frivolous way? Even if your patron hasn’t imposed such a duty on you already, that’s not to say it couldn't still happen."


That seems to me the DM dictates ALL the terms and change them at ANY time for ANY reason. It is certainly within DM bounds to withhold Warlock features and benefits until you "show your devotion to me" i.e. gain more levels in the Warlock class.

 

[Arial Black]

Did ah hoc block you?

How would I find out?

And if he did, he blocked me because of one post which said that I fundamentally disagreed with his stance on multiclassing?

Seems an extreme reaction to a civilised post...!

 

[Seramus]

To me it seems such a pact would never be granted to a good aligned PC (unless to subvert the PC) nor would any good aligned PC search them out. Using the tools to "manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends" to me means the hexblade probably wouldn't play well with others.

There is not much known about The Raven Queen, but nothing about her tenants suggests an actively malevolent entity. Her battles against the undead, and especially the demon Orcus, would very reasonably attract good aligned people.

Though I do agree that a Warlock's Patron should always be an important part of any story. Even if you dip it, you're accepting those story hooks in a major way. But for some people (like me) that's a good thing!

 

[smbakeresq]

There is not much known about The Raven Queen, but nothing about her tenants suggests an actively malevolent entity. Her battles against the undead, and especially the demon Orcus, would very reasonably attract good aligned people.

Though I do agree that a Warlock's Patron should always be an important part of any story. Even if you dip it, you're accepting those story hooks in a major way. But for some people (like me) that's a good thing!

Really? Here is a description of the Shadowfell:

"The Shadowfell, also known as the Plane of Shadow, was one of the planes of existence in various cosmological models. Its purpose and characteristics evolved as new cosmologies were formulated. Other names for this plane included Shadowland,[3] the Demiplane of Shadow,[4] and simply Shadow.[5]
It existed as sort of counterpart to the Feywild, in the sense that it was a reflection, or "echo", of the Prime Material Plane. Unlike the Feywild, it was a bleak, desolate place full of decay and death.[5][10]
“
It is the toxic plane of darkness and power.
It is the hidden place that hates the light."


All available information on the Raven Queen states that Raven Queen rules the ShadowFell, a dark, toxic place, and hates intelligent undead, that's why she battles them. She fights with Orcus over control of the dead, not because she thinks he is evil while she is good. To me its very unreasonable that any good aligned people would ever call on her for power nor make a deal with her wherein she controls all the terms. That's what other patrons are for.

I see your argument all the time by players who want to dip Hexblade for armor and weapons powered by their primary stat but want to be good-aligned to justify their selection. Maybe its me but to me its just an attempt at min/maxing a PC with just a veneer. At least put in the effort to re-flavor the subclass completely to make an attempt at getting it in.

 

[Warpiglet]

The HexBlade spam is ridiculous. Test your players and ask them if they read these parts:

"You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell—a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting. Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she and the force are one and that the weapons, along with hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends."

To me it seems such a pact would never be granted to a good aligned PC (unless to subvert the PC) nor would any good aligned PC search them out. Using the tools to "manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends" to me means the hexblade probably wouldn't play well with others.

I am not even sure the Pact creature would continue to grant the Pacts benefits if you multiclass just to dip as:

"A pact can range from a loose agreement to a formal contract with lengthy, detailed clauses and lists of requirements. The terms of a pact—what a warlock must do to receive a patron’s favor—are always dictated by the patron. On occasion, those terms include a special proviso that might seem odd or whimsical, but warlocks take these dictates as seriously as they do the other requirements of their pacts. Does your character have a pact that requires you to change your behavior in an unusual or seemingly frivolous way? Even if your patron hasn’t imposed such a duty on you already, that’s not to say it couldn't still happen."


That seems to me the DM dictates ALL the terms and change them at ANY time for ANY reason. It is certainly within DM bounds to withhold Warlock features and benefits until you "show your devotion to me" i.e. gain more levels in the Warlock class.

Out of curiosity, where did the bolded portion come from? I am guessing that is not PHB (unless is changed with a newer print run?). Thanks in advance for pointing me in the right direction!

 

[Satyrn]

The only thing I require to Multiclass is a good reason and explanation on how it fits into your PC background and development.

For example, it makes sense to start as Barbarian and then take professional training (MC as a fighter.). It does not make sense to start as a fighter and then become barbaric unless somehow the PC lives with a tribe, or befriends a barbarian who teaches him to focus his rage, or something like that.

I am real big on PC background and life development and will greatly aid players that put the time and effort in.

I don't even require that generally. I figure my players will come up with a flimsy reason whether I ask for it or not.


I did implement a serious roadblock to multiclassing into warlock, though, for my current megadungeon campaign. A player wanting to do so has to actually find the means to make the pact with the various available patrons. The most obvious method is to find the patron in the dungeon and negotiate.

I should've done the same thing for clerics, since the available deities are hanging around as NPCs too.