[Ari Marmell's blog] To House Rule or Not to House Rule

[Scribble]

Emphasis Mine: I guess my question would be... Why take that option away from DM's who want it? It doesn't have to be core, but a book like Unearthed Arcana of clearly labeled optional rules and variants for the game with sidebars about effects would be a great supplement for 4e...IMO of course.

Taking away vrs Not including... tomato tamato I guess... (wait that doesn't work as well when written does it...)

And I think the answer is because even in campaigns where the players always "trust" the DM, there will still be a number of "but whyyyyyys."

But I don't see why I can't play my Drow Uber Death Bringer with + 10 unholy avenger vorpal nunchuks! It's not that overpowered!

It's a tax on the DM to figure out if adding the "cool element" will offer enough benefit to offset the amount of extra work he now has to do because of it.

True by not including them into the game by default you do loose the benefit of some other creative types offering suggestions about cool stuff to optionally add... But in my opinion I gain more sanity by players not having seen them and then deciding to beg and plead because they just really really really need that thing to complete their character vision... pleeeeease?

I still readily add stuff that's out of balance, or unique to my games, but now I don't worry so much about stuff players find in the rule books and just really want to try.

 

[Imaro]

But that's not trust. Trust is the belief that the DM has your best interests at heart. That he's not going to screw you over or abuse his power. Trust is built.

Uhm, I disagree... Trust, in the context of a DM, is that the DM has the best interest of the overall game at heart. Catering to a player's best interest can step all over everyone else's fun. As far as not screwing you, I agree and again, I see no reason to distrust a DM before I ever play with him... guess that's just me...it just seems counter productive and even possibly could cause conflict to arise that wouldn't have otherwise. Sort of like you get back what you put out.

Quick Question: If you rarely ever play with the same people... how exactly is that trust suppose to get built, per your statement.

I once sat under a DM that made you justify every single one of your class abilities, and was going to weedle them away for various reasons (for instance giving the druid a hard time over the fact he gets an animal companion). However, this Dm was a "friend".

Yep, and as soon as I experienced this I would have decided whether I trusted this DM enough to believe he had the best interests of the game at heart in doing this...and thus stay in his game (until I changed my mind)... or whether this was something I couldn't deal with and didn't believe would be in the best interest of the game. What I wouldn't do is automatically assume upon sitting down at his table, before anything, that I shouldn't trust this DM to have the best interests of the game at heart... until he does something to provoke that reaction.

Is this one DM who was a friend the reason you don't trust any other DM in the world to run a good game when you sit down at their table?

There's more than just "This Dm isn't right for me". There's frustration and wasting time. People take offense to stuff like this.

Wow, I guess gaming is serious stuff. As far as my thoughts go... I'm a grown man, I can leave a game anytime I want, thus I'm not going to stick around long enough for major frustration to build up if it's headed that way I'll excuse myself. I'm also not going to take offense at a DM or game that doesn't suit me... I'll chalk it up to a lesson learned and get back to finding a group and DM that does. So I guess for me it really is just a matter of...This Dm (and group) is or isn't right for me... simple as that.

 

[Nifft]

Hmmm, not for DM's who have players that trust them... which has always made me wonder, why play under a DM you don't trust?

Same reason one might sleep with a person one doesn't love.

"Boobs", -- N

 

[Imaro]

Taking away vrs Not including... tomato tamato I guess... (wait that doesn't work as well when written does it...)

And I think the answer is because even in campaigns where the players always "trust" the DM, there will still be a number of "but whyyyyyys."

But I don't see why I can't play my Drow Uber Death Bringer with + 10 unholy avenger vorpal nunchuks! It's not that overpowered!

It's a tax on the DM to figure out if adding the "cool element" will offer enough benefit to offset the amount of extra work he now has to do because of it.

True by not including them into the game by default you do loose the benefit of some other creative types offering suggestions about cool stuff to optionally add... But in my opinion I gain more sanity by players not having seen them and then deciding to beg and plead because they just really really really need that thing to complete their character vision... pleeeeease?

I still readily add stuff that's out of balance, or unique to my games, but now I don't worry so much about stuff players find in the rule books and just really want to try.

So you're saying it's easier for DM's if WotC steps in and protects them from their players? Ok, I guess I can understand this... but I just don't agree with the philosophyof removing it entirely... especially like I said, if it's clearly labeled a DM optional book. I have never had players throw a hissy fit because they couldn't use something out of Unearthed Arcana in 3.5.

 

[tyrlaan]

I keep formulating a response and then realize I'm having trouble writing up an informed comment because the term houserule clearly can cover many things to many people.

Perhaps it might be a good exercise for folks to throw out some examples of what houserules they feel they could have done in the past but have become in recent times impossible/difficult/not worth the effort?

 

[Scribble]

So you're saying it's easier for DM's if WotC steps in and protects them from their players? Ok, I guess I can understand this...

Well if that's how you want to see it- that's how you want to see it.

I see it as WoTC not adding an added burden on me.

Shrug.

but I just don't agree with the philosophyof removing it entirely... especially like I said, if it's clearly labeled a DM optional book. I have never had players throw a hissy fit because they couldn't use something out of Unearthed Arcana in 3.5.

Like I said, it's a cost/benefits thing. I find the benefits outweigh the cost.

And I exaggerated the "hissyfit" nature of the players for comedic value (guess it fell short.)

But if you've never had players complain they can't have something (especially when it's cool) I'm impressed... I don't think I've ever met anyone like that before... except maybe a couple of Buddhist monks I met in an airport once.

Also add to the fact that I like cool stuff too... It sucks when that cool stuff also makes me do extra work. I kind of like that all the cool stuff just works.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Because some of us don't play with the same group all the time.

I can count on my hand the number of times I've had the same group for more than one campaign.

And if you've never played with this DM, or even know him, then you're not going to just instantly trust him.

This concept is so funny to me. I have a regular group but I also play at gamedays, pickup games at the gameshop, etc.

Trusting the DM isn't something I worry about for short term games. I assume any unknown DM will try and run the best game that they can. If the actions of the DM during the game go the extra mile towards making the experience unpleasant I probably won't participate in another game run by that individual.

It isn't a huge deal.

 

[Imaro]

Well if that's how you want to see it- that's how you want to see it.

I see it as WoTC not adding an added burden on me.

Shrug.



Like I said, it's a cost/benefits thing. I find the benefits outweigh the cost.

And I exaggerated the "hissyfit" nature of the players for comedic value (guess it fell short.)

But if you've never had players complain they can't have something (especially when it's cool) I'm impressed... I don't think I've ever met anyone like that before... except maybe a couple of Buddhist monks I met in an airport once.

Also add to the fact that I like cool stuff too... It sucks when that cool stuff also makes me do extra work. I kind of like that all the cool stuff just works.

Emphasis Mine: I never said that, and the fact that you believe this makes me wonder if you may have missed the point I made about Unearthed Arcana.

IMO, there is a big difference between a book like Complete Warrior... which is designed for Player and DM use (and thus IMO should be pretty balanced) vs. a book like Unearthed Arcana a book designed for pure DM use with notes and sidebars on how these optional rules can effect the game. The great part about it is someone like you would never have to buy Unearthed Arcana since it's benefits would not outweigh the costs. Someone like me on the other hand would buy it, read it, and decideon a case by case basis whether I wanted to use any of it. Best of Both Worlds for the win!

As far as the cool stuff thing goes... I guess I don't mind putting in some extra work if something is cool enough, regardless of whether it is totally balanced or not.

 

[Scribble]

Emphasis Mine: I never said that, and the fact that you believe this makes me wonder if you may have missed the point I made about Unearthed Arcana.

IMO, there is a big difference between a book like Complete Warrior... which is designed for Player and DM use (and thus IMO should be pretty balanced) vs. a book like Unearthed Arcana a book designed for pure DM use with notes and sidebars on how these optional rules can effect the game. The great part about it is someone like you would never have to buy Unearthed Arcana since it's benefits would not outweigh the costs. Someone like me on the other hand would buy it, read it, and decideon a case by case basis whether I wanted to use any of it. Best of Both Worlds for the win!

I don't think there's as big a difference. I mean, PRCs were in the DMG to begin with, yet they became a "must have" item pretty quickly.

I don't think it really matters where it comes from- if it's a cool idea people will probably want to use it.

Either way- I can see why WoTC would have incentive to not publish stuff like that, as opposed to stuff everyone can use without any extra work.

Also, they risk a PRC redo... It's so cool it just becomes a part of the game, instead of an optional idea throwing everything off... And then the people who still DO use it as optional complain because now the game is starting to assume use of PRCs... An Ouroboros of annoyance.

As far as the cool stuff thing goes... I guess I don't mind putting in some extra work if something is cool enough, regardless of whether it is totally balanced or not.

Neither do I... which is why I said I still add extra stuff to my game. I just prefer WoTC doesn't publish that stuff and cause me that extra work when I wasn't planning on doing it.

 

[Imaro]

I don't think there's as big a difference. I mean, PRCs were in the DMG to begin with, yet they became a "must have" item pretty quickly.

I don't think it really matters where it comes from- if it's a cool idea people will probably want to use it.

Because even in 3.0 the majority of PRC's were published in player oriented books, so while they may have started in the DMG... they were placed in player-centric books as opposed to DM centric books thus opening them up as a player resource. This is actually the exact opposite of what I am proposing.

And as to your second stattement... again, I never had a player pester me to use stuff out of DMG 2 or Unearthed Arcana.

Either way- I can see why WoTC would have incentive to not publish stuff like that, as opposed to stuff everyone can use without any extra work.

Not so sure WotC is sticking to this model. They published the hybrid rules in PHB 3... with cautions on using them in the game. And I'm certain we'll see more stuff like this as more things are published.

Also, they risk a PRC redo... It's so cool it just becomes a part of the game, instead of an optional idea throwing everything off... And then the people who still DO use it as optional complain because now the game is starting to assume use of PRCs... An Ouroboros of annoyance.

Hey! Like sticking the optional hybrid rules in a PHB instead of a DMG...

Neither do I... which is why I said I still add extra stuff to my game. I just prefer WoTC doesn't publish that stuff and cause me that extra work when I wasn't planning on doing it.

They force you to purchase and use all the stuff they publish? And if you houserule or disallow anything... how is there any difference?