Armor max dex -> dex penalty

[Bladesinger_Boy]

I heard mention of this idea before somewhere, but I don't think the idea had been fully fleshed out.

What about, rather than having a maximum dexterity bonus for armor, armor instead applied an effective penalty to dex (for AC purposes only, not init or skills or other stuff). As it currently it, a high-ex character is constantly min-maxing their highest allowable dex with the beefest armor possible and therefore needs to be constantly re-enchanting and trading up at higher level as they surpass their max dex limit.

Maybe something like this. It's basically a -1 penalty per armor category. This penalty cannot reduce your added dex bonus to AC penalty; it simply adds an effective dex bonus of +0. This means that, if a character plans to be tanking out in heavy armor, they may not bother getting a decent dex stat and later buffing up their dex. However, other characters may make that choice.
ARMOR CATEGORY____DEX (FOR AC) PENALTY
none..........................-0
light..........................-1
medium.....................-2
heavy........................-3

Effects like Mithril armor, the nimbleness enchantment, or class abilities like from the Pathfinder Fighter would still work by reducing the dex penalties you take. So, Mithril Nimble breastplate would impose a -0 penalty to Dex AC (instead of the -2 normal Breastplate would impose).

 

[ValhallaGH]

So, what you're suggesting is that, instead of having a Max Dex bonus, armor imposes a "penalty" to Dexterity only for the purposes of computing AC?

So, a Dex 19 Elf Fighter, with a suit of full plate, would have 10 + 8 (plate) + 3 (19-3=16 Dex) + Stuff = 21+ AC. But, he'd still have a +4 to Initiative, +4 to Dex skills, and +4 to Ranged attacks.
Further, via the Mithril material, a fighter class feature, and the Nimble enhancement, he can reduce the Dex penalty to -0, leaving him with 10 + 8 (plate) + 4 (19 Dex) + Stuff = 22+ AC.
Did I get that correct?
And the 10 Dex Dwarf in a similar suit of plate would be on 10 + 8 (plate) - 2 (10-3=7 Dex) + Stuff = 16+ AC. If he had the same enchantments, features, and materials, he'd be on 10 + 8 (plate) + 0 (10 Dex) + Stuff = 18+ AC.

...

Why? That's a lot of conditional "ability damage" with the result of making Dexterity a more powerful ability score, making heavy armor less attractive at all levels, and making Mithril and Nimble more powerful and desirable.
More complicated and less balanced. That's generally a bad sign when trying to rulesmith.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Armor 1-9, Bracers either 1-3 or 1-4

No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC. Actually, I could both AC and Reflex save but that's debatable. So, 18 dex fighter wearing full plate would get +8 for the armor bonus and 4-3=1 for the dex bonus. An 18 dex barbarian in breastplate would get +5 armor bonus and 4-2=2 for the dex bonus. An 18 dex rogue in chain shirt would get +4 armor bonus and 4-1=3 for the dex bonus.

The idea was to make wearing heavier armors a flat bonus that does not make things impossible for dexy characters. I don't the optimization, min-max of armor bonus to max dex. If a character gains dex under this system, they still gain the +1 bonus wearing whatever armor they already have. Under the old max dex system, gaining any bonus throws thigns up in the air and they either try to add further enchantment to their armor or sell-in and upgrade to something lighter.

More complex? I consider min-maxing to constantly considering whats the best armor I can wear consider both my current dex and bonuses I may or may not get in the future complex. A flat penalty seems simple to me.

Just to repeat, you can't ever get a dex penalty to AC because of armor; the least you can get is a +0 dex bonus to AC. Unless you actually have a negative dex modifier.

I wouldn't have a problem removing mithril most likely, or nimbleness, or both. Maybe just say the effects don't stack. So, unless one source is removing 2 or 3 points, like maybe Champion of Corellon or the Pathfinder Fighter, then the most dex penalty you'll get is 1.

This is a another topic, but medium armors do need to suck less. And chain shirt may be too powerful. I wouldn't mind saying something like base armor bonuses range from 1 to 9 and each category grants 3 points. Time for another table. I put both max dex bonus and the dex penalty in there. You can see the thematics of plate for heavy armors, mail for medium armors, and leather and other junk for light armors. I wanted to make sure Hide armor was still a +3 bonus to Druid armor restrictions didn't get change things too much, though now it's light armor.
ARMOR BONUS___MAX DEX/ DEX PEN___ARMOR CHECK____ CATEGORY
+1 Padded..................+8 / -1..............-0.........................light
+2 Leather..................+7 / -1..............-1.........................light
+3 Hide......................+6 / -1..............-2.........................light
+4 Scalemail...............+5 / -2..............-2.........................medium
+5 Chainmail...............+4 / -2..............-3.........................medium
+6 Splintmail..............+3 / -2..............-4.........................medium
+7 Breast Plate...........+2 / -3..............-4.........................heavy
+8 Half Plate...............+1 / -3..............-5.........................heavy
+9 Full Plate...............+0 / -3..............-6.........................heavy

Bracers of armor have also always got under my skin. I don't think they should be totally disallowed; but I wish they followed more set armor or shield rules and not there own thing. Remember Dastana from the Arms & Equipment Guide? Like that but not broken.

I think, while we should allow the no dex cap, maybe an armor check would help even things a bit. What if, though bracers of armor would still not count as wearing armor so monk and wizards and whatever can still wear with no profs, there were a few different levels of bracers you can wear depending on the armor prof you have. So, the wizard and monk can't wear as heavy bracers as the Duelist PrC or the Bladesingers. Then, they get enchanted up with buying or crafting or the magic vestment spell like any other piece of armor.

BRACER TABLE "A"
BRACER TYPE_____ARMOR BONUS___ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
Basic Bracers.......+1.........................-1.......................none
Light Bracers........+2.........................-2.......................light
Medium Bracers....+3.........................-3.......................medium
Heavy Bracers......+4.........................-4.......................heavy

If Bracers going up to a base 4 armor bonus is too big and light bracers at +2 is too good compared to wearing normal armor with its dex penalty, maybe something like this.

BRACER TABLE "B"
BRACER TYPE_____ARMOR BONUS___ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
Light Bracers........+1.........................-1.......................none
Medium Bracers....+2.........................-2.......................medium
Heavy Bracers......+3.........................-3.......................heavy

This is probably better than 1 to 4. I like table B more.

 

[Kerrick]

It was my idea.

 

[Aus_Snow]

FWIW, I prefer your rules, Kerrick.

Just one thing I noticed while there, however: Chainmail is better than the very poorly named (thanks, D&D) 'Breastplate' armour in three ways, *and* it costs less!

Not sure if there's context I'm not aware of (there are lots of rules there!) but I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.

 

[ValhallaGH]

No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC.

Oh!
So, it just makes "good" dexterity scores (12 to 16) useless for AC.

Huh. Yeah, that does reduce the need to consider your armor options. Grab the heaviest armor you can wear and go from there. You'll either never pump your Dex (16 or less) or pump it constantly (18+) to help your AC. And all the min-maxing returns to being on the ability score side, regardless of armor choice.

That is a lot easier to adjudicate, remember, and play that what I read the first time. It's also a power bump to the Monk, and to Mithril/Nimble light armor (not that the Mithril Shirt needed it), since it weakens everyone else.

How it's better than the existing system I don't see, but that's irrelevant. You see a value there, so go nuts.


Making Medium Armor not suck:
Remove the speed reduction. If a Fighter in scale moves at 30 feet, he'll be more reluctant to switch to plate, which pulls him down to 20 feet. If he really needs the improved defenses, and doesn't need the mobility (expecting a fixed-position fight) then he'll use the plate; if he expects the increased mobility to save him more pain than the increased protection then he'll stick with the scale (lighter, less restrictive, cheaper to replace [ah, Rusty], and lets him move about faster to maximize survival).

Good luck.

 

[Kerrick]

FWIW, I prefer your rules, Kerrick.

Just one thing I noticed while there, however: Chainmail is better than the very poorly named (thanks, D&D) 'Breastplate' armour in three ways, *and* it costs less!

Not sure if there's context I'm not aware of (there are lots of rules there!) but I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.

I think I did that because no one ever wears chainmail - they go straight from hide to breastplate. I can make chain comparable to breastplate - at 50 gp cheaper, players will probably still go for it over heavier armor.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I think I did that because no one ever wears chainmail - they go straight from hide to breastplate. I can make chain comparable to breastplate - at 50 gp cheaper, players will probably still go for it over heavier armor.

RAW Chainmail sucks. By the time you can afford it, you can also afford the (simply better) breastplate.

Your breastplate is about as good as Padded armor. The only people looking at it are proficient with heavy armor, have a Dex of 13 or less, and can't afford a good heavy armor.

Gongratulations, you've made chainmail significantly better than the breastplate.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC.

Oh!
So, it just makes "good" dexterity scores (12 to 16) useless for AC.

Huh. Yeah, that does reduce the need to consider your armor options. Grab the heaviest armor you can wear and go from there. You'll either never pump your Dex (16 or less) or pump it constantly (18+) to help your AC. And all the min-maxing returns to being on the ability score side, regardless of armor choice.

That does simplify things quite a bit!

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Thanks Hrothgar. I mean, I'm still up in the air as to how I'll deal with armor, but this isn't that bad. As I'd said above somewhere, I wanted some change because it's the "cap" part of max dex which makes leads to optimiation that cannot flex... so, if dex increases, in terms opportunity cost, you're actually penalized. Maybe my proposed system is just front-loaded penalties rather than further along progression penalties.

Another topic is removing arcane spell failure. Kerrick had some ideas about making armor check penalty effect more skills; specifically Concentration and Spellcraft. This would hinder spellcasters and would, in addition to needing the armor profs to begin with, make a trade-off still exist between easily casting and tanking out in heavy armor. I'd actually stiffen armor check as well so make it more meaningful.

Armor, especially Medium and Heavy armor, should be both more protective and have some slightly sharper drawbacks. I'm thinking of lumping shield profs in with armor. As somone else said, I'd remove the Cleric's hevay armor prof- so Fighter and Paladin are the only two basee 11 core classes with heavy armor prof. I mean, a fighter type wearing fullplate should be more imposing as to just how damn armored he is

PROF______ACCESS
Light........... Light armors, Buckler, Light Shield
Medium....... Medium armors, Heavy Shield
Heavy......... Heavy armors, Tower Shield