Armor Proficiency prereqs?

[cdrcjsn]

Someone commented on another thread that classes don't need to meet armor proficiency Str/Con prereqs if the proficiency is granted by their class.

I can't find any rule that justifies that stance however.

The only thing I can find is that armor/weapon proficiencies granted by the class are to be treated as the appropriate feats (pg 52).

Then under feats, it says that you lose the ability to use a feat if you no longer have the prereqs (pg 193).

So the combination of those two entries is telling me that yes, my 8 Str paladin is still proficient in all armor and shields...but he can only wear leather armor and cannot use a shield.

Can anyone find anything definitive in the books (or from a developer blog/post) that says otherwise? The only arguments against the above is mostly using opinion and can't provide a reference to back up their stance.

 

[nute]

Yes. It's the paladin section of "Character Classes". Says in the writeup that they have proficiency with armor including and up to plate.

This isn't a feat, therefore there are no stat requirements for it. It does not say "They get the Armor Proficiency: Plate" feat for free - and classes that do say things like that almost always say "Even if they do not meet the prerequisites."

The logic is that the training to be a paladin includes learning how to wear plate armor, regardless of your strength. Whereas some other class like a rogue trying to do so is going to have to have a significant amount of strength to learn how, since he doesn't have the natural ability that the paladin does.

The "treat them like the appropriate feats" means that if your class makes you proficient in scale mail and chain mail, you meet the prerequisites to take the "Armor Proficiency: Plate" feat.

 

[Zaruthustran]

The class rules say, under Armor and Weapon Proficiencies, "An armor or weapon proficiency you gain from a class counts as the appropriate Armor Proficiency or Weapon Proficiency feat."

The rule for pre-reqs says "If you ever lose a prerequisite for a feat (for example, if you use the retraining system to replace training in a prerequisite skill with training in a different skill), you can’t use that feat thereafter."

Thing is, the 8 Str paladin automatically gains plate armor feat. There's no decision he could make that would cause him to "lose" a prerequisite, since he never met the Plate Armor feat's pre-req to begin with.

Seems like the rule for losing prerequisite is intended to apply to feat retraining (especially given that ability damage is gone from 4e), so I'd have to say that your 8 Str paladin has the plate proficiency and can wear plate armor without penalty. But you 8 str cleric can't take Scale Armor proficiency.

 

[cdrcjsn]

This isn't a feat, therefore there are no stat requirements for it. It does not say "They get the Armor Proficiency: Plate" feat for free - and classes that do say things like that almost always say "Even if they do not meet the prerequisites."

I agree that in 3e, there were some classes (namely ranger and monk) that had a clause of "they can use the feat even if they don't meet the prereqs."

However, that is missing in any description of any class in the rules in the 4e PHB.

Please show me exactly where it says explicitly that they can use feats even if they don't meet the prereqs. Citing armor proficiency in the paladin section doesn't really cut it, since the general description of armor proficiency in the beginning of the class descriptions says to treat them as feats.

There are explicit instructions to treat them as feats.
There are explicit instructions that shows what happens to feats if you don't meet the prereqs.

I have seen no explicit instructions that state we can ignore prereqs for class-granted feats. That existed in 3e. So far, I haven't seen it yet in 4e in the PHB.

 

[cdrcjsn]

The class rules say, under Armor and Weapon Proficiencies, "An armor or weapon proficiency you gain from a class counts as the appropriate Armor Proficiency or Weapon Proficiency feat."

The rule for pre-reqs says "If you ever lose a prerequisite for a feat (for example, if you use the retraining system to replace training in a prerequisite skill with training in a different skill), you can’t use that feat thereafter."

Thing is, the 8 Str paladin automatically gains plate armor feat. There's decision he could make that "lose" a prerequisite, since he never met the Plate Armor feat's pre-req to begin with.

Seems like the rule for losing prerequisite is intended to apply to feat retraining (especially given that ability damage is gone from 4e), so I'd have to say that your 8 Str paladin has the plate proficiency and can wear plate armor without penalty. But you 8 str cleric can't take Scale Armor proficiency.

Unfortunately, when creating a character, you choose your class first, then pick your ability scores.

So, yes, you can actually "lose" your ability to wear armor, since you gain the armor proficiencies first.

But thinking more along these lines... if you don't meet the prereqs, can you take the armor proficiencies to begin with? There is still nothing that says prereqs for feats are waived.

Armor proficiencies are gained for free. But there are examples in the book of abilities that a character gains and cannot use (hello Warlock paragon paths for MC warlocks).

My head hurts...I need to lie down. Someone wake me up when they release the FAQ.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Please show me exactly where it says explicitly that they can use feats even if they don't meet the prereqs. Citing armor proficiency in the paladin section doesn't really cut it, since the general description of armor proficiency in the beginning of the class descriptions says to treat them as feats.

There are explicit instructions to treat them as feats.
There are explicit instructions that shows what happens to feats if you don't meet the prereqs.

Nowhere does it say to treat them as feats. It says they "count as the feat" not "are treated exactly like the feat". It's the same text used on Magic cards for years: "Count this creatures as a Goblin." It means that if something checks to see if you have that feat, you do. However, 4e uses a different model than the 3e one. It is exceptions based. What this means is that the rules tell you where you get the break the rules.

In this case, the general rule is: You aren't proficient in armor and take these minuses. The exception says "You are proficient in these armors." There are also other ways to gain an exception to the rules, such as taking a feat.

I have seen no explicit instructions that state we can ignore prereqs for class-granted feats. That existed in 3e. So far, I haven't seen it yet in 4e in the PHB.

You are right, however, the proficiencies are not feats. They are not listed as bonus feats like they were in 3e.

 

[Diirk]

The pregen dragonborn paladin in KotS wears plate with 12 con.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Haha, yes, I think that armor pre-reqs are going to be in the first batch of FAQ.

Your interpretation does jeopardize my build for Saul the Diplomat, the 8 Str, high Cha paladin.

 

[Ginnel]

quoted for accuracy

"Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Different classes are proficient with different kinds of armor and weapons, shown in these two entries. An armor or weapon proficiency you gain from a class counts as the appropriate Armor Proficiency or Weapon Proficiency feat."

I think the key thing in this paragraph is that it doesn't say An armor or weapon proficiency feat, it clearly states the class is proficient, not that it gets the appropriate feat, it then states this proficiency counts as a feat which I think clearly states it as being there for feat tree purposes.

If you like this is an example of exception based design, normally you need a feat to be proficient in the armor the classes say no you just get the proficiency

but if you want to take -2 to attacks and reflex saves in your game for not having prereqs for the feats feel free, would be a more realistic house rule for sure

 

[nute]

Argh. I get what you're saying, but this is one of those things that I tend to think of as "blindingly obvious".

13 STR to wear plate armor is a function of the Armor Proficiency: Plate feat.

Wearing plate armor does not require 13 STR. This much, we can assume, is a given.

The paladin can wear and be proficient with plate armor WITHOUT having that exact feat. This also is a given.

Therefore, the paladin does not need a 13 STR to be proficient in plate armor.

A side example: the wizard gets the Ritual Casting feat for free. He does not have the text "All wizards can cast Rituals." This is different than possessing an innate armor proficiency. Wizards, by dint of their class, are automatically trained in Arcana, and thus meet the prerequisite. So it's kind of an automatic.

There does not have to be a rule that says "Paladins can be proficient in plate armor without having a 13 STR" because there *is* a rule that says flatly and specifically "Paladins are proficient in plate armor".