Armor Specialization (Plate)

[Goumindong]

So, it is your contention that WotC intended CC to be a "gotcha" ability instead of a sticky ability.

Its only a "gotcha" ability the first time you use it. And fighters are plenty sticky with their OA's. Which is, ironically, another "gotcha" ability by your definition.

Nothing says they don't have to catch on after the first time it works.

How does this class ability actually make the Fighter sticky with your interpretation? Your interpretation means that the Fighter does more damage, not that he defends others better. He becomes more of a Striker and less of a Defender.

Only so much as you can say that stickyness is a choice of the enemies. They choose to not shift away because they know they'll get whacked, they choose to not move away because they know they'll get whacked and have their movement ended before it began. They will only know these things once the ability gets used. Once they do, its perfectly rational for them to operate knowing the abilities of the fighter.

Let's take Combat Advantage which is an attack modifier, not a power or condition.

Is it your claim that the monster does not KNOW that the PC has Combat Advantage against it since CA gives the +2 bonus to the PC?

I never made the claim that monsters do not know the basics of how combat operates. That was all you. I said they do not know the specifics of the players powers.

Just as you, the player, do not know the specifics of an enemies power, only exactly what it does to you when it does it to you.

If an enemy has a power that immobilizes you and does extra damage when you're immobilized, then you know about the extra damage even though you were not immobilzied when it hit. If an enemy has a power that immobilizes you and another power that only can target immobilized enemies if they make an attack that does not include the enemy, you do not know about interrupt ability until its used on you.

Put another way, the effect on the monster is not that it is marked. It's that it is Combat Challenged. The Fighter is NOT marking the creature, he is Combat Challenging the creature. And the creature knows that the Fighter is doing this because of the rule of it having exact knowledge of what is happening to it because CC is being added to the power. It is being challenged. Not marked.

Except that is not what the rule states, nor what the rule intends.

The fighter's not really sticky. He's just a guy that gets lots of extra attacks.

You're doing a lot of hand wringing logically to get there. You're assuming that enemies do not carry knowledge from one round to another. You're assuming enemies cannot observe the combat environment and see stuff happening to their allies. You're assuming that enemies cannot communicate to their allies. And you're assuming that enemies cannot know the basics of combat.

None of these things are true. A few of them might be true for some enemies. E.G. Oozes aren't likely to know what's up after they get CC'd by a fighter for attacking someone else, and they certainly aren't going to be communicating it to their allies, and they certainly aren't going to be seeing it and then figuring it out. But they are going to carry information over from one round to the enxt and they are going to know the basics of combat.

Kolbolds on the other hand, are going to know and/or do all those things. The moment the first kolbold gets CC's, they're all going to know what's up not only because they just saw it, but because the kolbold that got hit and communicate the knoweldge he gained of the attack to the rest of the Kolbolds. This knowledge does not vaporize at the end of the round and they're going to pull off as many tricks as they can utilizing the basics of combat.

 

[Piratecat]

No snarky bickering, please. Either discuss it or don't, but being rude and telling other people what they're thinking and knowing isn't something we wish to see.

 

[KarinsDad]

Its only a "gotcha" ability the first time you use it.

But, that is not what happens with the Paladin. The foe that is marked and 20 feet away (moved away and was then ranged attacked by the Paladin) KNOWS that if it attacks someone else, a mystical radiant bolt will fly from the Paladin's hand and strike it.

I never made the claim that monsters do not know the basics of how combat operates.

You avoided the question instead of answering it. If a power gives Combat Advantage to the PC, does the monster know it since CA is given to the PC and not to the monster?

You're doing a lot of hand wringing logically to get there.

If you say so. I prefer to think of it as using the simplest solution instead of the convoluted one which assumes that all monsters never saw a Fighter fight before.

And, I also view it as the foe knowing that something bad will happen, not that it knows about the free attack. It knows it will become a trigger if it does the actions. So for a Sword Mage, the creature doesn't really know that the Sword Mage will teleport over and smack it.

A simpler view is that the creature knows that it is either a normal mark or a mark with a rider. The creature doesn't know what the rider is, only that the creature is a trigger for a rider. This just simplifies the DM's job.

Otherwise, the Paladin example and ones like it are totally illogical.

 

[Goumindong]

But, that is not what happens with the Paladin. The foe that is marked and 20 feet away (moved away and was then ranged attacked by the Paladin) KNOWS that if it attacks someone else, a mystical radiant bolt will fly from the Paladin's hand and strike it.

Yes, the Paladin power is different. That is because its a different ability with different effects. I am not sure what is so amazingly profound about this.

Oh, and the Paladins marks damage doesn't require an action or line of effect from the Paladin as far as I am aware. The damage is pure divine retribution. It does not stop the Paladin from taking other immediate actions[as the fighters ability does].

You avoided the question instead of answering it. If a power gives Combat Advantage to the PC, does the monster know it since CA is given to the PC and not to the monster?

Depends on the power. If the power is an ability used on the monster that makes the monster grant CA then yes, it knows. Why does it know? It knows because in the powers text it says "the monster grants CA" and the monsters know the effects of all powers used on it.

If the power was not used on a monster and simply says "you have combat advantage on the next attack you make" then the monster does not know, because you did not use any power on them and it is not within the basic combat knowledge of the game.

And no, i did not "avoid the question"

If you say so. I prefer to think of it as using the simplest solution instead of the convoluted one which assumes that all monsters never saw a Fighter fight before.

1.It assumes no such thing, even though such a thing might be a reasonable assertion. What it assumes is that the enemy does not know the capabilities of the party before the party uses those capabilities. Just as the party does not know the enemies capabilities before the enemies use them without the use of heavy metagaming of the "bad" sort.[Bad as in, "not endorsed" since some level of metagaming is expected, but game knowledge is not and its expected that said game knowledge is ingored by players even when they do know it if their players would not]

And, I also view it as the foe knowing that something bad will happen, not that it knows about the free attack. It knows it will become a trigger if it does the actions. So for a Sword Mage, the creature doesn't really know that the Sword Mage will teleport over and smack it.

Except they don't know "something bad will happen" with the fighter because there is no indication of it. For the sword mage, its the same as the Paladin, the marks are special marks. If you mark someone without using your Aegis of Assault, you do not get to teleport over and smack it. Why do you not get to teleport over and smack it? Becacuse the power is tied to the special mark and not an immediate ability triggered any marked creature.

A simpler view is that the creature knows that it is either a normal mark or a mark with a rider. The creature doesn't know what the rider is, only that the creature is a trigger for a rider. This just simplifies the DM's job.

Otherwise, the Paladin example and ones like it are totally illogical.

No, that is not the "simpler" view. Both are equally simple. Enemies do not know they might be the subject of a trigger unless that trigger is specifically spelled out within a power that has already been activated upon them.

If an ally has a razor shield, enemies do not know that they could trigger it just because they attack him(or by your example, could attack him). They only know that they trigger it when the other guy makes it happen.

 

[KarinsDad]

Enemies do not know they might be the subject of a trigger unless that trigger is specifically spelled out within a power that has already been activated upon them.

You mean like the Combat Challenge POWER in the Compendium where the trigger is specifically spelled out within a power that has already been activated upon them?

 

[Goumindong]

You mean like the Combat Challenge POWER in the Compendium where the trigger is specifically spelled out within a power that has already been activated upon them?

Now you're just making stuff up. Incidentally, stuff we've gone over before. Unfortunately i cannot refer you to the compendium right now, because its down, but goodness, i referred you to it when it was up, you could have checked then.

1. The combat challenge power is an immediate interrupt ability with a trigger of "an enemy marked by you shifts or attacks someone else". The enemy you use it on knows whats up as soon as you use it, but not before you use it.

2. The combat challenge mark ability and the combat challenge interrupt ability are separate. The first ability lays marks, not special marks, just plain old marks. The second ability allows you to retaliate against those marks.

Two different abilities. One triggers on any old mark assigned to you. One makes marks. They are not the same ability, its not special marks. Its not in any way different than if a Bard uses misdirected mark on an enemy and assigns the mark to you when creating the mark, and its not in any way different from you smacking the enemy for attacking the bard if that enemy is marked by you from the misdirected mark.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now you're just making stuff up. Incidentally, stuff we've gone over before. Unfortunately i cannot refer you to the compendium right now, because its down, but goodness, i referred you to it when it was up, you could have checked then.

1. The combat challenge power is an immediate interrupt ability with a trigger of "an enemy marked by you shifts or attacks someone else". The enemy you use it on knows whats up as soon as you use it, but not before you use it.

2. The combat challenge mark ability and the combat challenge interrupt ability are separate. The first ability lays marks, not special marks, just plain old marks. The second ability allows you to retaliate against those marks.

Two different abilities. One triggers on any old mark assigned to you. One makes marks. They are not the same ability, its not special marks. Its not in any way different than if a Bard uses misdirected mark on an enemy and assigns the mark to you when creating the mark, and its not in any way different from you smacking the enemy for attacking the bard if that enemy is marked by you from the misdirected mark.

If you say so.

Sounds like Divine Challenge and Aegis of Assault to me. A mark and a trigger. Two abilities and the monster knows them both.

I fail to see the difference from a rules perspective.

 

[LittleFuzzy]

You're absolutely right. I was going for con 10 actually (it was intended to represent a defense-light wizard), so 48 hps.

Your defense-light wizard had a 20 base Int? I know wizards are one of the few classes that can get away with a 20 in their AC-boosting stat, but how does that represent a defense-light build?

 

[Goumindong]

If you say so.

Sounds like Divine Challenge and Aegis of Assault to me. A mark and a trigger. Two abilities and the monster knows them both.

I fail to see the difference from a rules perspective.

I suggest you actually go read Divine Challenge and Aegis of Assault and note that they are both powers with special applications.

Then you should go and read combat challenge and note that it is not, that it has two separate advantages for the fighter. The first advantage is that every attack me makes marks. Stop, end of ability. The second advantage is that he can take an action when any marked creature that has that mark assigned to him, from ANY source, be it a utility power, be it another classes at will, be it a multi-class power that lets him mark all adjacent creatures for a round, is able to attack with a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt.

This is separate from the Divine Challenge and Aegis marks because those marks make special allowance for the specific mark created by the power. The ability that they grant is tied ONLY to the mark created by the power and is not a separate ability by itself. If they get a mark assigned to them by any other means, that mark does not grant the special mark abilities.

As well, the damaging abilities present in Divine Challenge and Aegis of Assault are specifically listed in the power block with the mark in question.

There is no equivalence, there is no wiggle room either RAI or RAW.

Your defense-light wizard had a 20 base Int? I know wizards are one of the few classes that can get away with a 20 in their AC-boosting stat, but how does that represent a defense-light build?

No staff of defense, underleveled armor, Cloth Armor.

Just look at the AC at level 1 to compare. The wizard has an AC of 15. Base+int=15. Which goes as high as 18[base+int+leather+staff]. He can eventually upgrade to hide, and hide specialization for an AC of Base+int+4+1].

A rogue has a base AC of at least 16. [10+dex+leather] With as high as 18[10+Dex+hide=10+5+3]. He can eventually get a light shield and specialization for an AC of base+dex+3+2

To compare, a fighter will have an AC of [Base+9+2] but will have a slightly better bonus from armor strength. This puts their AC's roughly equal to each other before bonus items[Super staff of defense] or paragon path bonuses[pit fighter]. Supposing the rogue or wizard started out with a 20 in their AC stat the fighter will be 1 ahead after specialization and 2 ahead after pit fighter.

 

[Regicide]

But, that is not what happens with the Paladin. The foe that is marked and 20 feet away (moved away and was then ranged attacked by the Paladin) KNOWS that if it attacks someone else, a mystical radiant bolt will fly from the Paladin's hand and strike it.

I prefer to picture it as a hole cracking open in the sky, the hand of a god coming down, picking up the offender, spanking it, then putting it back. It's easier to picture than a bolt going around corners and under doors.

No, the PCs are fighting monsters who expect to win, because obviously they've beaten every previous adventuring party who came along. Otherwise they'd be dead already, and the adventurers would have nothing to do.

Sooo... your monsters can calculate the effectiveness of their blows by percentage of healing surges used when they hit various targets, but they can't tell that a fight is going against them, badly, and they're taking far more damage than putting out and far worse than they've ever seen before and the enemy isn't breaking a sweat? Sheer silliness. A fighter isn't a "less attractive target" because they lose a little bit of DPR, it's just silly. If a monster can calculate DPR they can calculate they've lost the fight.