Armor thoughts

[Planesdragon]

While talking with a player today, a different way of dealing with armor occured to me.

What if, rather than giving an Armor Bonus or DR, armor had its own hit points and hardness, and intercepted any attack that hit the wearer? (Critical hits would be either critcal-damage-to-armor, or normal-damage-to-wearer.)

Thoughts?

 

[AeroDm]

I guess initially I'd need some more information. I can infer that the armor intercepts the hits that the wearer takes and then the damage goes to the armor, eventually degrading it to the point that it breaks. However, what about up until this point? Does the character suffer any damage? If this is the case then a shiny new set of platemail put on right before you face the BBEG could prove to be very anti-climactic.

I think any system has potential, but I'd need some more details on this one before I can comment too much. Quality idea though.

 

[Yair]

Interesting idea, but I don't think it will work.

If you don't want the armor to be reduced to scrap metal in no-time, you need to set the hp and stuff high enough for it to sustain many hits. This means that a simple "you're hit when the armor is destroyed" won't work, since it would take forever to wear it down during which you are invulnerable to hits, and then suddenly it would be worthless and you are getting stubbed while effectively naked... I don't think that's the effect I want armor to have.
A better mechanic, I think, is that the armor should sustain some damage but have a threshold over which damage is conferred to the wearer, say like stoneskin. While this is workable, it is essentially a sytem using armor-as-DR (which are notoriously difficult to do right) plus an armor-attrition system.
Personally, I find the calculations involved with armor hit points and so on cumbersome and not conductive to the standard D&D (heroic) game; in the right setting (say, Midnight) it might be appropriate, though.
Since I don't like the extra book-keeping, and I don't know how to make a proper DR system to represent armor, I can't offer much more to this discussion.

It is an interesting idea, though.

 

[Planesdragon]

details, details.

(It's probably worth nothing that the campaign I'm contemplating this for uses a class Defense bonus.)

I can infer that the armor intercepts the hits that the wearer takes and then the damage goes to the armor, eventually degrading it to the point that it breaks.

Yep. Characters are hit more often, and any damage over the armor's hardness is inflicted on the armor.

For example: A 5th level fighter in fullplate (standard AC 22) would have an AC of 14, and any hit to the fighter over at least 10 hp would damage the armor, until the armor had taken 40 hp of damage, at which time the fighter gets damaged directly, without benefit of the armor's hardness.

However, what about up until this point? Does the character suffer any damage?

Not unless they're attacked by energy attacks, or gappled, or struck with a critical hit. (Sneak Attacks would probably become a Full Round action, that are reduced by hardness but then strike at the character.)

If this is the case then a shiny new set of platemail put on right before you face the BBEG could prove to be very anti-climactic.

Not any more than casting a heal spell, or fighting a BBEG who attacks with death magic.

If you don't want the armor to be reduced to scrap metal in no-time, you need to set the hp and stuff high enough for it to sustain many hits. This means that a simple "you're hit when the armor is destroyed" won't work, since it would take forever to wear it down during which you are invulnerable to hits, and then suddenly it would be worthless and you are getting stubbed while effectively naked... I don't think that's the effect I want armor to have.

D&D already has rules for the HP and hardness of armor: hardness as the material, HP = 5 / point of armor bonus. Magic increases this.

And, in this variant, armor can be bypassed by energy attacks, critical hits, sneak attacks, or grappling. Some weapons (such as a mace) may be able to attack through armor as well.

A better mechanic, I think, is that the armor should sustain some damage but have a threshold over which damage is conferred to the wearer, say like stoneskin. While this is workable, it is essentially a sytem using armor-as-DR (which are notoriously difficult to do right) plus an armor-attrition system.

That's actually the beauty of this--the armor doesn't grant DR, so it doesn't greatly change the system.

The next step is to flesh out the system, playtest, and check the math. I'll keep this thread posted when I get a chance to flesh out the system a bit.

 

[Winternight]

I would like to hear how it works(worked out)

just flesh out the rules a bit more.

If i understood you correctly a
a plate would has hardness 10 and 40 hit points
a leather would has hardness 4 and 16 hit points

if you are hit (no dex, no shield) with AC 12 both ould subtract the whole damage but would get their own damage.
if you are hit (no dex, no shield) with AC 16 leather wouldn`t help at all plate would still keep you warm.
right?

 

[MarauderX]

Interesting idea, yes, but then it gets that much more complicated. Pretty soon we will add which piece of armor was hit where, and next thing you know you will have Battletech sheets with armor points on it. After your armor takes a beating you take internal damage to your arms and such, reducing their effectiveness with skills... and then you pass out due to heat... well, maybe not that far. I see your point, and until we each show up with our PDAs and laptops to a gaming table and simulate battle in real-time I think we are fine with armor being the way it is - simple.

 

[Planesdragon]

If i understood you correctly a
a plate would has hardness 10 and 40 hit points
a leather would has hardness 4 and 16 hit points

Yep.

Iif you are hit (no dex, no shield) with AC 12 both ould subtract the whole damage but would get their own damage.
if you are hit (no dex, no shield) with AC 16 leather wouldn`t help at all plate would still keep you warm.
right?

Not quite. The only benefit that armor gives is that it absorbs damage.

Thus, a 1st level characters with a 10 Dexterity and no other AC modifiers will have an AC of 10, regardless if they wear full plate or a thin silk shirt. The full plate, however, will block almost all of the damage that they get inflicted with: a horde of club-weilding 1-HD orcs would have to score critical hits to damage the character in full plate.


Hmm... I'm thinking that only nonlethal damage that's actually from a grapple will be able to bypass the armor; I don't want a bunch of characters suddenly "pulling their punches" because they want to get through a character in armor.

 

[Winternight]

Not quite. The only benefit that armor gives is that it absorbs damage.

Thus, a 1st level characters with a 10 Dexterity and no other AC modifiers will have an AC of 10, regardless if they wear full plate or a thin silk shirt. The full plate, however, will block almost all of the damage that they get inflicted with: a horde of club-weilding 1-HD orcs would have to score critical hits to damage the character in full plate.

explain that a bit please

 

[Planesdragon]

explain that a bit please

Sure.

In the variant, armor doesn't grant an armor bonus to AC. Instead, it intercepts any attack made against its wearer.

So, for example, let's say that an Ogre is fighting a fighter whose AC, without armor, is 14. Under the D&D rules, the fighter has an AC of 22 when they put on Full Plate, and any hit the Ogre makes over AC 22 damages the fighter.

Under the variant, the fighter only has an AC of 14, and so any hit the ogre makes on AC 14 or better causes a damage roll.

However, the damage is applied to the armor first--to really damage the fighter, the ogre needs to either inflict at least 40 points of damage to the armor (subtracing 10 points for each hit, due to the armor's hardness) or score a critical hit.

Is that clear enough, or would you like a blow-by-blow example?

 

[Winternight]

Sure.


Is that clear enough, or would you like a blow-by-blow example?

let me try it.
Fighter with Dex bonus +2 and plate (+8 - hardness 10/ 40 hitpoints)

oger hits AC 11 nothin' happens
oger hits AC 12 nothin happens
oger hits AC 13 making 8 points of damage nothin' happens`
oger hits AC 19 making 15 points of damage - armor take 5 poitns of damage
oger hits AC 30 making 8 points of damage to the charakter
oger hits critical making NORMAL damage to fighter

right?
I fear MarauderX is right
that becomes a book keeping nightemare