D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Maxperson]

I find gameplay is a lot better and more diverse if you roll abilities individually. This avoids the tropes of the 8 strength Archers and Rogues and 8 intelligence Sorcerers etc. This makes the game a lot more flavorful in my experience.

The PHB doesn't let you do that because you can move stats around, so even if you use the 4d6 method you still have a dump stat.

We have used several different homebrew methods, one modified from the 1E "Uneathed Arcana" book (which was official rules in 1E) and leads to very high stats in general.

A second alternative I use and really like is start off by picking your primary and secondary stat - For your primary roll 9d6 keep 3 with a minimum score of 14 (this gives you an average of 16), pick your secondary stat and roll 8d6 keep 3 with minimum of 12 (average 14), then roll 4d6 for your other 4 stats and you roll them in order-roll 4d6 for strength, write that in strength, roll 4d6 for dexterity, write that in dexterity...... If your total for all 6 stats is less than 72 you raise your lowest stat by 1. You keep raising the lowest stat by 1 until the total equals 72, if you have 2 stats tied for lowest you choose the one you raise. Then you apply your racial and feat bonuses where you want.

This results in an average a little above point buy and a floor that is very close to point buy and since you have a minimum 14 raw score in your main stat you can always apply the +2 and start with 16. Even though the average is higher than point buy the characters are not usually any stronger because you can't strategically optimize, your archer can't choose to dump strength and intelligence to have a 12 Wisdom for a good perception. You might end up with a 6 wisdom, a 12 strength and a 17 Intelligence.

With racial bonuses, this also results in a character that can get any 2 stats automatically high enough to multiclass.

Finally this can make Standard Humans very attractive if you have a lot of odd rolls.

I do prefer averages for hit points though.

My group uses a method that includes dump stats, but not really. We assign 5d6-2L to two stats, 4d6-L to two stats, and 3d6 straight up to two stats. So that rogue would dump strength by putting 3d6 there, but may very well roll a 14(I've seen a few 17's rolled for "dump" stats). Once all rolls happen, I allow the player to swap one pair of stats just in case their prime stat is gimped, because I've seen some very low 5d6-2L rolls, but since they had no control over where that high stat is, the swap likely isn't going to be in strength for the archer rogue.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

A -1 dex to a PC that can wear heavy armor and doesn't rely on dex as primary ability is negligible. A -1 to con? Compared to what? Most of the time I'll shoot for a +2 bonus from con. That 3 HP difference per level adds up quickly, especially when you only get 4 HP per level. I've seen it be pretty harmful to players that set up their PCs that way because they don't plan on being front line.

Although maybe that's just because I tend to have the opposition flank and attack the squishies now and then because why shouldn't the archers and casters of the world risk their hides once in a while?

So let's take a DC 15 Con save. The 9 Con (-1) character saves on a 16 or higher. The 15 Con (+2) character saves on a 13 or higher. So 3 times out of 20, on a simple d20 roll with no other compensating factors (Inspiration/Bardic Inspiration/Bless/Resistance/etc), the modifier actually makes a difference. Is that something that we all truly notice at the table during any given play session? We might sense it over the course of a campaign but, surely many of us have witnessed this, a player (or other players) are more likely to blame the d20 itself than to blame any one choice of an ability score.

Fortunately, characters are not wholly defined by a single stat. When a low con character is created (that low score, after all, needs to go somewhere), some/many players will choose to mitigate that weakness through, for an example Warlock, one or more such things as: being a Hill Dwarf, Fiendish Vigor, Eldritch Mind, the Tough feat, the Moderately Armored feat, earning Inspiration, teaming up with other party members who can heal and protect, seeking out and carrying extra healing potions... etc, etc.

In the end, whether via array or point buy or (typically) 4d6, a character will have a "low" stat. They have plenty of options to mitigate against it somehow wherever it might be, if they so choose. I'm pretty sure, based on your ardent evangelism on the forum of "No One True Way" that you wouldn't really balk at someone else at your table creating a character with -1 to Con, right? What you've outlined above is just your preference for a PC that you personally would play, yes?

 

[Oofta]

So let's take a DC 15 Con save. The 9 Con (-1) character saves on a 16 or higher. The 15 Con (+2) character saves on a 13 or higher. So 3 times out of 20, on a simple d20 roll with no other compensating factors (Inspiration/Bardic Inspiration/Bless/Resistance/etc), the modifier actually makes a difference. Is that something that we all truly notice at the table during any given play session? We might sense it over the course of a campaign but, surely many of us have witnessed this, a player (or other players) are more likely to blame the d20 itself than to blame any one choice of an ability score.

Fortunately, characters are not wholly defined by a single stat. When a low con character is created (that low score, after all, needs to go somewhere), some/many players will choose to mitigate that weakness through, for an example Warlock, one or more such things as: being a Hill Dwarf, Fiendish Vigor, Eldritch Mind, the Tough feat, the Moderately Armored feat, earning Inspiration, teaming up with other party members who can heal and protect, seeking out and carrying extra healing potions... etc, etc.

In the end, whether via array or point buy or (typically) 4d6, a character will have a "low" stat. They have plenty of options to mitigate against it somehow wherever it might be, if they so choose. I'm pretty sure, based on your ardent evangelism on the forum of "No One True Way" that you wouldn't really balk at someone else at your table creating a character with -1 to Con, right? What you've outlined above is just your preference for a PC that you personally would play, yes?

It's not an issue of con save, those are rare. It's the impact on HP total which matters, I've seen glass cannon PCs turned into paper mache PCs that disintegrate with a stiff breeze. May not matter to you, but as a DM I don't avoid damaging PCs just because they don't have many HP.

 

[Lanefan]

It's not an issue of con save, those are rare. It's the impact on HP total which matters, I've seen glass cannon PCs turned into paper mache PCs that disintegrate with a stiff breeze. May not matter to you, but as a DM I don't avoid damaging PCs just because they don't have many HP.

Same here. To me it's on the player of the h.p.-impaired character* to keep it out of harm's way; be it by investing in really good armour and defenses or by picking one's battles or by whatever means other than sheer cowardice. Hiring a combat healer as a hench can help too.

One method I've seen used is for the PC to throw everything into offense, the idea being to kill the foe fast before it can get many shots in at your vulnerable hide. As a DM I love this approach as it guarantees any combat involving that PC will be short and to the point.

* - and as we roll for h.p. at every level, h.p.-impaired characters are fairly common.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

It's not an issue of con save, those are rare. It's the impact on HP total which matters, I've seen glass cannon PCs turned into paper mache PCs that disintegrate with a stiff breeze.

Ok - I gave examples of how to mitigate HP deficiencies. So are you indirectly saying you actively oppose players dumping Con? Not entirely clear from your statement here.

May not matter to you, but as a DM I don't avoid damaging PCs just because they don't have many HP.

Nor do I. As a DM, I'm a fan of the PCs but I don't hold back on encounters and don't care a lick about "balance". The game world has places that are more dangerous than others and the players know this. As a player, I understand this as well.

Couldn't help noticing you didn't - or chose not to - answer my questions in the prior post. Care to?

 

[DND_Reborn]

It's not an issue of con save, those are rare.

I have to disagree with this. CON saves are the 2nd most common save (DEX likely the first), if not the first IME and IMO. Poison, concentration checks, cold damage, avoiding exhaustion and more.

It's the impact on HP total which matters

I think this depends a lot on the player's style. If they are more aggressive, low HP can certainly come to hurt them, but I've seen many low HP PCs over the years where it wasn't a big detriment. Now, it is probably more important in 5E due to the ramped up amount of damage than it was in prior editions.

According to the poll I did earlier this year, CON is the least likely stat to be dumped anyway, which is a direct effect of linking hit point bonuses to CON (a VERY POOR design IMO given the supposedly abstract nature of hit points...).

D&D 5E - Where's the Dump?

So, now years into 5E and I want to see what peoples' experiences are with dump stats. I know the results probably won't be surprising, but hey, maybe they will be...? What ability is your most common dump stat? YOU CAN SELECT UP TO 2 OPTIONS.

www.enworld.org

 

[ECMO3]

It's not an issue of con save, those are rare. It's the impact on HP total which matters, I've seen glass cannon PCs turned into paper mache PCs that disintegrate with a stiff breeze. May not matter to you, but as a DM I don't avoid damaging PCs just because they don't have many HP.

Hit points are so easy to get though I rarely find this a problem and the extra hit points are not usually enough. An enemy that is going to mow through 60hps on a 10th level character is going to mow through 70 or 80 too.

There are also numerous abilities that will give you temp hit points and false life is a 1st level spell and it will give you enough temp hps to make up for a 2 point constitution difference at 6th level, and it can be upcast for even more.

The characters that tend to go down quickest in campaigns I play are those with a low AC who can't reduce damage they take.

 

[Oofta]

Ok - I gave examples of how to mitigate HP deficiencies. So are you indirectly saying you actively oppose players dumping Con? Not entirely clear from your statement here.



Nor do I. As a DM, I'm a fan of the PCs but I don't hold back on encounters and don't care a lick about "balance". The game world has places that are more dangerous than others and the players know this. As a player, I understand this as well.

Couldn't help noticing you didn't - or chose not to - answer my questions in the prior post. Care to?

I'm saying that when I've had wizard PCs in a party they tend to die, or at least go unconscious, on a regular basis. In general tanking con is one of the worst choices, after all how often does strength matter to a wizard? Anything that can help a wizard (or rogue or whatever) stop from being knocked out of the fight is just going to be even more effective if you don't have a slightly higher con.

That's all. Higher con is beneficial to all PCs that ever take HP damage.

 

[Oofta]

Hit points are so easy to get though I rarely find this a problem and the extra hit points are not usually enough. An enemy that is going to mow through 60hps on a 10th level character is going to mow through 70 or 80 too.

There are also numerous abilities that will give you temp hit points and false life is a 1st level spell and it will give you enough temp hps to make up for a 2 point constitution difference at 6th level, and it can be upcast for even more.

The characters that tend to go down quickest in campaigns I play are those with a low AC who can't reduce damage they take.

At 10th level the wizard an 8 con will have 32 HP, the wizard with a 12 con will have 62. They both have exactly the same options and tactics to avoid damage. One can simply survive twice as much damage as the other.

Maybe that extra 30 HP doesn't matter in your campaigns, it does in mine.

 

[Hussar]

Wait, what? A 10th level wizard had 40 hp as a base (6+9x4). With a 12 con that’s 50 hp. Or 30 with an 8 Con.

It’s a 20 point spread, not 30.

And that’s basically one hit. That’s it. Just one maybe two hits from a cr10 creature.

It really isn’t much of a difference.