D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[billd91]

Y'know what? No. I don't think I'm going to let myself be bullied out of the thread just because someone doesn't like my conclusions.

Wow. Bullying? Is that seriously what you're calling this?

 

[Hussar]

Wow. Bullying? Is that seriously what you're calling this?

That's fair. I'll edit my post. Would you care to respond to the points I made?

 

[Lanefan]

I find division of treasure doesn't really matter with my groups, they just divide it up however they want, normally giving magical items to whomever can make the best use of it. Sometimes this will also lead to exchanging or selling of items if no one can make use of them.

So if there's one front-line fighter in the group and the by-far best magical items are a sword and some plate mail, it sounds from what you're saying like the fighter would get both...which immediately makes the fighter the most powerful character in the party by a significant margin.

That, and even if you-as-DM intentionally try to place items such that a broad spectrum of characters would find something useful, there's still no telling what they'll decide to keep and what they'll decide to sell.

Or - in my case - what they'll lose in other ways; my current group lost half this adventure's treasury (including several spellbooks) last session when their bag of holding went bye-bye vs a lightning bolt...

Coin, or coin adjacent treasure, is normally divided up evenly between everyone.

This, I think, is nearly universal. It's the magic item division (and lack of evaluation in the process) where things get wonky.

 

[Lanefan]

Then take a look at the groups that die roll. Show that the average isn't somewhere close to about 80 points in the majority of cases.

Sorry, but what numbers does 80 points represent in a six-stat array in point-buy? Or are you referring to the total of the six stats being 80 (thus an average of 13.33)?

I forget the exact number, but using 5d6k3 gives a stat average in the low 13s - 13.25 comes to mind, which would be about a 79 point total, but that 13.25 might not be quite accurate. I'll look it up and get back to ya.... ::google google google:: ...the only answer I can find quickly* is 13.41, which is roughly an 81-point total.

* - worth noting it was found in a thread from this forum, dated about 2003.

 

[cbwjm]

So if there's one front-line fighter in the group and the by-far best magical items are a sword and some plate mail, it sounds from what you're saying like the fighter would get both...which immediately makes the fighter the most powerful character in the party by a significant margin.

Which I think is fine, it makes the group as a whole more powerful. No one really worries about others having more items, we just keep playing and having fun.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, I meant just the values of the 6 stats added together, not the point buy value. It does get a bit confusing either way.

 

[Lanefan]

But there is no uncertainty. The odds of you getting lower are very, very small, while the odds of being equal or higher are much greater. That's not a trade off.

Sure there's uncertainty: you've no idea whether that 12.25 average (74 total points, rounding up) will come from 18-17-14-11-8-6 (which you're stuck with) or from 14-13-12-12-12-11 (which you're also stuck with). You've also the uncertainty of not knowing whether you'll end up with 85 points or 65 or whatever.

With point-buy you've got the certainty of being able to control what your stats end up as. With array, of course, you've no choice at all.

 

[Lanefan]

I wouldn't say they never find magic items, but it is fairly rare and when they do it's pretty obvious who should get the item because it's not actually random (although I do roll sometimes for inspiration).

There's one difference, then: in my games magic items are commonly found as I run old-school adventures be they published or homebrew, and also a la 1e items are more fragile and can be destroyed.

I don't tell people how to play, although I do make recommendations on how to split treasure during session 0.

Same here, on the clear understanding that nothing I say is binding. I encourage a by-total-gold-value division system where every one ends up with the same g.p. share value whether made up of items, cash, or a combination. The few times I've seen anything else tried have ended in disaster at the time and led to campaign-long imbalances later.

Maybe because of the tone I set, there's rarely if ever conflict. If there's ever a question of who gets an item, it's discussed amongst the group and it goes to whomever needs it most or who has the fewest items. Magic items in my campaign do have a monetary value, I worked out a price list based on rarity because I think it's silly not to have one.

My prices are based on a combination of rarity and usefulness, but kudos for having a list at all.

For the most part I simply hand out gold or have someone powerful reward with gifts for specific individuals, in part to balance things out if I see an imbalance.. When it comes to purchasing things I limit what's available. For example at lower levels boots of flying were not available (they are at higher levels) and a cloak of displacement will probably never be for sale. I also keep treasure and magic items fairly limited since they can cause an imbalance. My current group just reached 17 and there's one very rare item amongst them, although that's likely to change soon.

In the interests of realism I have what's available to buy at any given time-place be completely random, weighted by the relative rarity of the different items. Thus, even when they're still 1st level they might find a cloak of displacement for sale...though there's no way in hell they could afford it!

As for keeping treasure and items limited, that wouldn't fly well with our greedy bunch - gotta play to the crowd and all...

 

[Lanefan]

/snip

So, here's my argument in a nutshell.

If Player A came to the table with a die rolled character with 6 12's, most DM's would let that player reroll that. Even though that is 100% a baseline character, there are a significant number of DM's who would consider that "unplayable" or at least really underpowered.

If Player B came to the table with 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12, most Dm's wouldn't even bat an eye. That's perfectly fine and no one would question that, even though that's actually a 76 stat character and significantly more powerful than a baseline character.

If Player C came to the table with 12, 12, 12, 10, 10, 10, that's pretty much a guaranteed reroll. It's a pretty rare DM that would insist that those rolls stand. Even with 4x12 and 2x10, even though that's a 68 stat character, would likely get rerolled.

My own rule is that if the average is less than 10 (i.e. a total of 59 points or less) OR if no single stat is over 13, you can ditch it and try again. Which means, while 12-12-12-12-12-12 (or even all 13s) would get you a reroll if you wanted, you'd be stuck with 14-12-12-10-10-10 or even 14-12-12-8-8-8. (the worst I can recall seeing enter play was something like 14-14-11-10-9-9 and it didn't do too badly; another at 15-12 11-11-10-6 became one of the longest-serving and most entertaining characters in my current game - and is still out there on hold, waiting for that group to reboot).

And, finally, again, for evidence, I direct the reader to their own die rolled groups. Simply add up the numbers. Is your group below baseline on average? How about your last group? Or the one before that? Or the one before that? Have you ever played in a group that averaged below baseline?

In my case no, probably because we use a different baseline.

 

[Lanefan]

Which I think is fine, it makes the group as a whole more powerful. No one really worries about others having more items, we just keep playing and having fun.

Cool!

Question: does your group worry about disparities in stats, or would they if stats were rolled?