D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[GMforPowergamers]

But the outcome of point buying stats can be disparate as well. So is point buy also one of the methods that can be fair but may not be depending on the outcome?

I'm not sure I understand the claim... I am willing to hear you out (as I would be if a player came to me) so what is unfair...

 

[Crothian]

so to all of you who are pro rolling, if I sat down at your table, and the other 3 players rolled and had these stats:
1) 18,16,16,15,13,12
2) 17,17,17,15,11,11
3) 17,16,16,16,10,9

and I said hey, I'll just said "Instead of rolling, I'll just take 18.16.16.14.12.11" what would you say?

There is a word for that and it is called cheating. If everyone agrees to roll then you get to roll. Sure, some of those stat blocks are pretty good and others might not be so good but that's part of the game when you agree to roll up characters. If you want a fair game then everyone gets to play by the exact same rules and we don't make exceptions for people just because.

In your example where you are pretty sure the players are cheating to get good ability scores if that was me in the situation I would leave the game. I don't want to play with people that feel they have to cheat and lie to everyone to have fun.

Now I have no problem with people picking stats. I've done that in about five campaigns. I've never had anyone pick a stat block that was as good as the one you picked. The highest score anyone every choose was a 16 (before racial modification) and every character we have made this way started with at least one score of 8 or lower.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No. You're going to have to roll them just like everyone else. There's more to rolling the stats than just the final values.

so if I rolled and got 13,11,10,9,7,7 would you let me change that, since it would be FAR lower then anyone else?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There is a word for that and it is called cheating. If everyone agrees to roll then you get to roll.

FLAG ON THE PLAY... you just added "everyone agrees" well if I don't then it's not everyone... or let me guess, I don't count, there for everyone who counts agrees...

Sure, some of those stat blocks are pretty good and others might not be so good but that's part of the game when you agree to roll up characters. If you want a fair game then everyone gets to play by the exact same rules and we don't make exceptions for people just because.

so what if the players other then me say "I don't care" because I keep hearing in this thread other players should not care what your stats are...

In your example where you are pretty sure the players are cheating to get good ability scores if that was me in the situation I would leave the game. I don't want to play with people that feel they have to cheat and lie to everyone to have fun.

if you mean that first post that I made on this thread (Where I did just pick stats) then everyone in that game would say they are not cheating (I would most likely agree with you not them) they do things like "that roll doesn't count"

 

[billd91]

so if I rolled and got 13,11,10,9,7,7 would you let me change that, since it would be FAR lower then anyone else?

Nope.

 

[billd91]

FLAG ON THE PLAY... you just added "everyone agrees" well if I don't then it's not everyone... or let me guess, I don't count, there for everyone who counts agrees...

If you don't agree, why are you there?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Nope.

and I find that unfair... why should an entire campaign come down to one set of bad rolls? Is there any recource I would have? (I will add some DMs have in the past suggesting just suicide the character... then roll again, but get mad when I ask what the difference is from just rolling again)

If you don't agree, why are you there?

um in my case because it is my house 3/4 of the time we are playing... and we alternate DMs... so me and my friends got togather to play and someone said "I want to run," and we started... then when something came up I raised the objection like an adult and asked for something to be changed... nothing to agree on before hand...

 

[Crothian]

FLAG ON THE PLAY... you just added "everyone agrees" well if I don't then it's not everyone... or let me guess, I don't count, there for everyone who counts agrees...

If you don't agree to the character creation rules then no one should be rolling anything. At least that's how we do it in games I'm in. If people are rolling up character then everyone has agreed to roll up characters. If you didn't agree to it but are going to do it anyway then get a backbone and put your foot down or something.

so what if the players other then me say "I don't care" because I keep hearing in this thread other players should not care what your stats are...

Then it gets discussed as a group. I don't care what the attributes are I care about what was agree to and you not following that. If you can't keep to something as simple as character generation then what other rules are you going to want changed after the fact? It's a warning sign to me of a problem player.

if you mean that first post that I made on this thread (Where I did just pick stats) then everyone in that game would say they are not cheating (I would most likely agree with you not them) they do things like "that roll doesn't count"

I would not game with them.

 

[billd91]

and I find that unfair... why should an entire campaign come down to one set of bad rolls? Is there any recource I would have? (I will add some DMs have in the past suggesting just suicide the character... then roll again, but get mad when I ask what the difference is from just rolling again)

How is character generation the "entire campaign"? You're not rolling a bunch of stats and declaring a winner based on the outcome. As far as recourse for what to do - in many games, there are plenty. 3e and PF have certainly made a good many easily available, and for all stats not just Strength and Dexterity like in previous editions. Even 5e has a few of them too that jump you right to 19 rather than just adding a little bit. In 5e, you could also choose to be a fighter and get stat increases a little more frequently. You could pick a class that is less dependent on multiple stats (a bigger deal in 3e/PF than 5e) and focus on it if you feel competitive with your fellow players. Or, realize that your competition is the enemy, and focus on your competition with them rather than your compatriots.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I am about to run a game for two players. The decision is made to use randomly generated stats using 4d6 drop lowest, arrange as desired. To save time, I generate the stats. Th first set is all 14's or higher. The second set is all 12's or lower. I flip a coin to see which player gets which set. Is that fair?
What if I had decided before I generated the stats, "these are Tracy's stats" and then, "these are Terry's stats": would that be any less fair?
Statistically speaking, the methods are identical and a they are statistically equivalent to letting each player generate their own stats.
To say the resulting game experience will be equitable for both players is to misunderstand the definition.