D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[FrogReaver]

Honestly I hate rolling. I can't fathom why people like rolling for stats at all.

1. Rolling destroys game balance.
2. There is rarely any real risk to rolling. (You either get rerolls or can default to the stat array or you can suicide the character).

3. Because of 2. you are actually increasing the average stats of the party by quite a bit. (Removing all the super low rolls that would have helped balance the 4d6 drop lowest convention and keeping the highest ones causes this)
4. Because of 3. you will need slightly tougher combat and skill challenges.
5. Because of 4. the players that end up taking the array are going to be comparatively weaker than they would have been otherwise because the challenge level increased because of the higher stat values on some PC's.

Thus all things being equal, rolling for stats actually weakens your character if you default back to the standard array because the DM will have to compensate for some characters being stronger by increasing the difficulty level of the game.


This is why I oppose the hybrid system of roll for stats and then choose that or the array/pointbuy.

I also oppose rolling on it's own because character combat capabilities will vary too greatly.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

4. Because of 3. you will need slightly tougher combat and skill challenges.
5. Because of 4. the players that end up taking the array are going to be comparatively weaker than they would have been otherwise because the challenge level increased because of the higher stat values on some PC's.

I have strong objections to point #4. Universe composition should be independent of PC design[1]. If I have a crashed ship full of CR 7 Stygian Skeletons with Blackrazor the sentient greatsword in the hands of a CR 14 Skeletal Warrior in the middle, that ship should be exactly the same whether the players are investigating with their 4th level PCs with medium stats or their 12th level PCs with excellent stats and xixchil biomodifications.

Furthermore, if the players do investigate the ship with their 12th level PCs, the encounter will likely play out pretty much the same with Dex 20 as it would with Dex 18 or even Dex 16. Either the players will manage to defeat the enemy in detail (1-3 skeletons at a time, so higher Dex merely means a slightly easier combat and more skeletons defeated between rests) or they will approach the problem laterally (e.g. flood the ship by breaking the nearby dam, thus drowning all the undead, maybe--higher Dex has zero effect on this plan) or they will frontal assault (40-60 skeletons at a time, in which case your own personal Dex will boost your survival rate by maybe 10% so you die in 2.4 rounds instead of 2.2).

Therefore, the logic chain breaks at point #3; it does not hold in the general case that allowing rolled stats weakens PCs built with standard array or point buy.

-Max

[1] N.b. when I say "should be" I am expressing a strong preference for my own games, not a moral judgment of people who enjoy customizing encounters to players. I wouldn't play in those games but clearly you would or you wouldn't do it. YMMV, etc.

 

[Crothian]

Honestly I hate rolling. I can't fathom why people like rolling for stats at all.

1. Rolling destroys game balance.
2. There is rarely any real risk to rolling. (You either get rerolls or can default to the stat array or you can suicide the character).

One is heavily argued. Different people have different opinion on game balance and what destroys it. So far in my own game even though the range of ability scores would be about 12 points in the point buy system the balance between character has been just fine. The most powerful character is because the player has the most experience playing D&D type games and not because the character has the best stats, he doesn't.

Point two the rerolls and such only happens if DMs let it happen. That did not happen in our game. As I said pages ago each character has a stat of 8 or lower with 5 being the lowest stat.

Your last point is interesting and I guess if games focus heavily on combat then that might matter more. We've had one combat in the last three weeks. Playstyle matters.

 

[scholz]

So.. jumping in late, read most of it. I am most interested in the "middle of the road" approaches:
(4d4, or 2d6+6, roll for group array)
I wanted to throw out something else. My personal attraction to rolling is the mystery and discovery. That said, rolling a meh character is no fun.

So what about this option? Consolation Prizes/Privilege Payoffs ?
With the normal point buy you can maximize to get +6 worth of ability bonuses. Not always optimal, but the most.
Then you "equalize" their result using the maximum 6 ability bonus, (the 28 point buy can grant you 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10)

If the result would grant few than 6 bonuses they enhance their stats to equalize it.
OR
Spend those points in other interesting ways.
1 point equals proficiency in a skill, language, armor prof, weapon-type, or tool
2 points equals a proficiency with a save, or knowing a cantrip (from any class), +5ft move, or a Luck Point
4 points equals a +1 to their proficiency bonus.

If the rolled stats would exceed the +6 bonus then they need to acquire points to balance it out. They could "buy down" abilities to reach the +6 bonuses.
Or
Acquire the disads to pay off the abilities.
1 point lose proficiency with some skill, armor type or weapon type, tool
2 points lose proficiency with a save, -5" move, 1 fewer cantrip (if appropriate), take on an Unluck Point (DM call for when it occurs), minor disability (missing an eye, obesity, prejudicing scars, tattoos or other features).
4 points -1 Proficiency, serious physical disability like blindness, deafness, missing limb, etc.

Players might come up with their own of similar benefit or disads.

Things I like - Keeps the mystery, increases the diversity of characters, makes a certain amount of sense (naturally gifted people don't need to try as hard to do well, so might not develop the skills so well (Superman vs Batman)), rough equality (probably not perfect, but closer), having lower stats might be appealing, effects are most noticeably at low levels when differences are more pronounced.
Potential problems - Exceeding "lucky" (unlucky) rollers who get 18,18,16,16,14,12 are looking at a lot of compensating disadvantages to make up for the high rolls and might feel bad (sour grapes).

Think of this like progressive tax system with a social safety net (Rawls might approve).

Ex 1. Average Hardworking Joe
Rolls 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 9 = +0 bonus (get 6 points)
+1 Proficiency (4), Medium Armor (1), Stealth (1)

Ex. 2 Genetic Lottery Winner
Rolls 18 (4),18 (4),16 (3),16 (3),14 (2),12 (1) = +17 ability bonuses (need 11 points)
-1 Proficiency Penalty (4), 2 points Unluck (4), Deserter Tattoo on Face (2), -1 to Persuasion (1)

Ex. 3 Serendipity
Rolls 9 (-1) 8 (-1), 8 (-1), 8 (-1), 8 (-1), 7 (-2) = -7 ability penalties (gets 13 points)
6 points of luck (12), Insight Skill (1)

I haven't worked out all the math, but smarter people than I could do that. Could something like this work to make randomness more appealing to the equality contingent? Ideally, I'd like something simpler, not sure how to do that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So.. jumping in late, read most of it. I am most interested in the "middle of the road" approaches:
(4d4, or 2d6+6, roll for group array)

Be aware that 2d6+6 is not a middle-of-the-road approach, it is a high-end approach designed to produce characters more powerful than 4d6 drop 1. 4d4 and group array are middle of the road though.

I haven't examined your proposal in detail, but the general problem with "consolation prize" systems is that they just change the structure of the rolls. You can easily wind up with a system where it's "optimal" to roll 18, 14, 14, 3, 3, 3 because you get so much compensation for the 3s.

 

[scholz]

By "middle of the road", I just meant systems that incorporate BOTH "randomness" and "equality." I didn't mean systems that results in the same numbers as the point buy does.

 

[scholz]

You can easily wind up with a system where it's "optimal" to roll 18, 14, 14, 3, 3, 3 because you get so much compensation for the 3s.

While that might be "optimal" it is pretty unlikely. And three stats with -4 penalties will probably inconvenience the player more than the benefit of the 18, 14, 14, and 4 bonus points.
That said, you're right that there might be some problematic sets of rolls, just as some point buys are non-optimal. (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8) Is that enough of a problem to need correcting?

 

[FrogReaver]

I have strong objections to point #4. Universe composition should be independent of PC design[1]. If I have a crashed ship full of CR 7 Stygian Skeletons with Blackrazor the sentient greatsword in the hands of a CR 14 Skeletal Warrior in the middle, that ship should be exactly the same whether the players are investigating with their 4th level PCs with medium stats or their 12th level PCs with excellent stats and xixchil biomodifications.

Furthermore, if the players do investigate the ship with their 12th level PCs, the encounter will likely play out pretty much the same with Dex 20 as it would with Dex 18 or even Dex 16. Either the players will manage to defeat the enemy in detail (1-3 skeletons at a time, so higher Dex merely means a slightly easier combat and more skeletons defeated between rests) or they will approach the problem laterally (e.g. flood the ship by breaking the nearby dam, thus drowning all the undead, maybe--higher Dex has zero effect on this plan) or they will frontal assault (40-60 skeletons at a time, in which case your own personal Dex will boost your survival rate by maybe 10% so you die in 2.4 rounds instead of 2.2).

Therefore, the logic chain breaks at point #3; it does not hold in the general case that allowing rolled stats weakens PCs built with standard array or point buy.

-Max

[1] N.b. when I say "should be" I am expressing a strong preference for my own games, not a moral judgment of people who enjoy customizing encounters to players. I wouldn't play in those games but clearly you would or you wouldn't do it. YMMV, etc.

I don't subscribe to the thought that the game world exists outside what has already been described as existing in it. So if you haven't described a ship with 7 skeletons yet then what is inside that ship is clay that can be molded however the DM desires.

There are times to mold that clay into the clearly this will kill you kind of challenges. There are times to mold that clay into very easy challenges. There are times to mold that clay into challenges that are just challenging enough.

But that clay is just clay until the DM describes it. You may choose to beforehand that you will always mold this clay into what you have preplanned for it but that's really taking away a large portion of your DM tools IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

One is heavily argued. Different people have different opinion on game balance and what destroys it. So far in my own game even though the range of ability scores would be about 12 points in the point buy system the balance between character has been just fine. The most powerful character is because the player has the most experience playing D&D type games and not because the character has the best stats, he doesn't.

Point two the rerolls and such only happens if DMs let it happen. That did not happen in our game. As I said pages ago each character has a stat of 8 or lower with 5 being the lowest stat.

Your last point is interesting and I guess if games focus heavily on combat then that might matter more. We've had one combat in the last three weeks. Playstyle matters.

Totally agree. Play style matters. If you are running a combat lite adventure then the stat variances can be more easily forgiven. +1 to hit and +1 damage just has so much more of an effect than +1 to a few skills and saving throws.

 

[Jacob Marley]

Honestly I hate rolling. I can't fathom why people like rolling for stats at all....

If you can't fathom why someone likes what they like, you could always ask them.