D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[spinozajack]

It's funny. I use point buy because I loathe fudging. Die rolled characters get fudged often IME so I don't do that.

Fudging is not a problem if you roll in the open (including the DM).

One should never allow players to roll stats or HP unsupervised, even if you're playing with someone not known to cheat. People do cheat, if left to their own devices and think they're not being watched. It's human psychology. It's just a game, right? Why not have an 18, a 17, and a 16 if you want it? You're entitled to get exactly the build you want, right? With exactly the stats you want? Sure.

It's funny when I check out the optimized build forum here about 5th edition. It almost always involves variant human, great weapon master, polearm master, or some kind of warlock sorcerer hybrid monstrosity. I am considering re-allowing variant humans, but only with the non-powergamer feats to pick from that add some flavor or situational bonuses. Nothing with "master" in the title.

 

[Arkhail]

Rolling vs. array vs. point buy really doesn't matter that much. There are trade-offs to each.

They still have to know how to play the game.

At my table, all players have rolled stats. The one with the best scores is a Vengeance Paladin. She rolled something like 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 10...legitimately. I watched. At level 16 her scores are 20, 16, 19, 12, 10, 20. She is also one of the least effective players. She just isn't very good at understanding her character and the many options and variables of the game...even being married to the DM hasn't helped her.

As the DM, it really isn't that hard to deal with these issues, and the DM is who it all comes down to.

 

[JamesonCourage]

It's funny. I use point buy because I loathe fudging

I loathe fudging, too.

Die rolled characters get fudged often IME so I don't do that.

Well, that is your experience (and so I won't try to take it away from you).

While I've had one of my best friends cheat (by fudging in-play) before, it was a short-lived problem. But he is a very close friend (I was the best man at his wedding, he calls me his older brother, I lived with his wife and son to help out while he was deployed, etc.), so it does happen even with close friends, I'll admit.

Though it's funny. I think I might have more faith in my players than you do (in this area). If that is the case, that amuses me, because you're often said to (unfairly or not) paint the GM in a bad light compared to the players.

Fudging is not a problem if you roll in the open (including the DM).

I agree with this. (And as GM, I do roll in the open, too.)

One should never allow players to roll stats or HP unsupervised, even if you're playing with someone not known to cheat. People do cheat, if left to their own devices and think they're not being watched. It's human psychology. It's just a game, right? Why not have an 18, a 17, and a 16 if you want it? You're entitled to get exactly the build you want, right? With exactly the stats you want? Sure.

I actually trust my players not to do this. But that's not always the case, I guess. Right now, my main group is made up of good friends that I've known for 13-15 years each, as well as my older brother (who I've known my entire life, and who introduced me to gaming). However, when I do introduce players that are friends-of-friends, or are work friends, or the like, you're right, I do have them roll stats in front of me (when the game calls for rolled stats).

 

[Hussar]

I loathe fudging, too.

Well, that is your experience (and so I won't try to take it away from you).

While I've had one of my best friends cheat (by fudging in-play) before, it was a short-lived problem. But he is a very close friend (I was the best man at his wedding, he calls me his older brother, I lived with his wife and son to help out while he was deployed, etc.), so it does happen even with close friends, I'll admit.

/snip

It's not even about cheating.

Player A rolls his character and it's one point better in all stats than standard array - 17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10 - and no one blinks an eye. I've never seen a DM who would think anything of that array of stats. Even though that character is better in every way than a standard array character, it's considered fine.

OTOH, if the player rolled 1 less in every stat - 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6 - many DM's would allow a reroll of that character. In 3e, it would be automatic since his total bonus is -1. In 3e, this character was considered unplayable, by the rules.

IOW, standard array is largely the minimum for any rolled character and the overwhelming majority will be at least standard array or higher. Even [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]'s character from a few pages back had higher total bonuses than standard array.

So, no, it's not about cheating at all. Rather it's about the entire system from front to back.

 

[JamesonCourage]

It's not even about cheating.

That's exactly what my comment was about, actually.

So, no, it's not about cheating at all. Rather it's about the entire system from front to back.

Yes, there are other considerations when it comes to choosing a character generation method that works for your game / group / campaign / character.

You're someone that I've talked to about this in the past. I know where you stand, and you may or may not know where I stand. I've talked about what I like and why in this very thread already. I feel no need to go over more of this with you again.

But, if you want to, you can quote me and talk more about the ups and downs. That's been going on for a long time in this thread, so it won't be particularly out of place. Just don't expect a reply on why I like rolling or like arrays or like point buy, or why I dislike rolling or dislike arrays or dislike point buy.

I've already added in my two cents, and have no interest in going in circles with you on yet another topic. I've make nearly all of my Wisdom checks on this site these days. I bow out of conversations early (or just don't post at all) rather than engage in debates doomed to circle for forty pages before slowly dying a cheap, prolonged death.

But, yeah. Go ahead and quote me and tell me what's what, if you want. I'll probably at least read it.

 

[Hussar]

That's exactly what my comment was about, actually.

Yes, there are other considerations when it comes to choosing a character generation method that works for your game / group / campaign / character.

You're someone that I've talked to about this in the past. I know where you stand, and you may or may not know where I stand. I've talked about what I like and why in this very thread already. I feel no need to go over more of this with you again.

But, if you want to, you can quote me and talk more about the ups and downs. That's been going on for a long time in this thread, so it won't be particularly out of place. Just don't expect a reply on why I like rolling or like arrays or like point buy, or why I dislike rolling or dislike arrays or dislike point buy.

I've already added in my two cents, and have no interest in going in circles with you on yet another topic. I've make nearly all of my Wisdom checks on this site these days. I bow out of conversations early (or just don't post at all) rather than engage in debates doomed to circle for forty pages before slowly dying a cheap, prolonged death.

But, yeah. Go ahead and quote me and tell me what's what, if you want. I'll probably at least read it.

No idea why you're getting defensive here. Like I said, for me, this is not a fairness issue at all, but a DM issue. Because die rolled characters are very often higher statted than point buy overall, then it makes the group punch above its weight class, meaning that the DM needs to use harder encounters to challenge the party. Which means that the group will advance faster, will receive higher rewards - ie. better magic items - which means that the group will punch even more above its weight class. Which means that the group will take on even more difficult challenges, get even more XP, and greater rewards, and spiral ever onwards and upwards.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IOW, standard array is largely the minimum for any rolled character and the overwhelming majority will be at least standard array or higher. Even [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]'s character from a few pages back had higher total bonuses than standard array.

Are you sure? No, seriously- I have no idea what the standard array is offhand, so I have no way to formulate an accurate response.

Edit: if this poster is correct:

The standard elite ('PC') stat array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8: 25 points. The standard nonelite ('peasant') stat array is 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10: 15 points.

Then your assertion is incorrect:

Using 4d6 drop lowest, rolled in order, I had a fun time playing 3Ed human Ftr/Th Johnny Bones: Str15 Dex15 Con13 Int12 Wis8 Cha6.

 

[Hussar]

Are you sure? No, seriously- I have no idea what the standard array is offhand, so I have no way to formulate an accurate response.

Standard 5e array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Total modifier of +5. Your character had pretty much the same total modifier, IIRC, 18, 16, 16, 8, 6, 6? Which would be +3. Pretty darn close.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You might have been confusing him with Bear, the AD&D human fighter with maxed 18s in his physical stats, and 6s for his mental stats. But he was a special case, since his stats were chosen and permitted by the DM to see how the PC would play out.

Easy error to make, given the size of the thread.

 

[Hussar]

You might have been confusing him with Bear, the AD&D human fighter with maxed 18s in his physical stats, and 6s for his mental stats. But he was a special case, since his stats were chosen and permitted by the DM to see how the PC would play out.

Easy error to make, given the size of the thread.

Bear was the character I was referring to. IOW, that character is actually better, bonus wise, than a standard array character. It's not at a disadvantage.