Art of the Peel

[JaeKin]

1.) It's better to ignore the paladin (who hits hard to begin with) and take the divine challenge damage (which with a decent cha mod is also nasty) to get a hit on the striker? Just simple numbers here, but at level 1, I would say the damage that would do, is almost as high as the damage from the striker, who is still going to be hitting the enemy too. So, the enemy decided it was best to take more damage, in order to defeat the enemy who does the most damage but he has a penalty to hit of course too. I want to play in your game. Send us dumb enemy after dumb enemy who will completely ignore me and futilely attack my rogue.

2.) Is movement completely useless? The only 'shifty' opponent we've faced is kobolds, who do make getting around me alot easier, otherwise, if they dont' want a OA for running past me, they have to slow down and shift as a move action to get around me. They will get around me, but a whole lot slower. If a paladin is getting into the thick of it and blocking off paths to your strikers/controllers/leaders, than the ranger, warlock, rogue will be using all of their neat movement abilities to get away easily and line the enemies up for easy kills.

3.) I'm glad I don't have a DM who have the mobs so dumb they don't attempt any strategy, so cowardly they flee, or just simply metagame and have them go after the rogue because he's clearly the threat. You have to approach enemy mentality with some common sense, a bit of fairness, and consistency. Beasts and other creatures of below sentient intelligence, fight instinctually, they don't know how to distinguish who is the most dangerous opponent, they either attack out of reaction (cornered) ambush (stalking prey) or ordered (guard/pet) If the defender runs up and hits a guard drake for example, it should likely stay on the defender (mark or not) until another hits it for more, or it's given another command to do differently. Enemies with intelligence can learn from a fight, but shouldn't come into a fight with prior knowledge to what goes on. There's not a tag on the fighter's shield that reads (Fighter or Defender) so the mobs shouldn't react to them entering the room by charging past him to attack the wizard unless they have some sort of knowledge or instruction to do so (the elite boss telling them too or something) Now, after combat is on, and they see the wizard drop some nice scorching burst or the ranger or rogue plug some enemies, and they want to charge past the defender to get to them? Have fun, we are back at point 1 where divine challenge and a minus to your hit make this mob really an idiot.

Sounds to me like the OP just wants to kill his wizard, persuade his paladin to quit playing his class, or doesn't like his party altogether.

 

[Victoly]

It matters a LOT who is being healed since different characters will have more HP and more healing surges. Have YOU even played 4E? I have. More HP means healing surges heal MORE per action spent activating them. Guess what, PLD comes out as being about the absolute worst target to put damage into with their greater HPs and number of surges compared to non-defenders, and thats BEFORE you consider the PLD can be buffing himself with temp hitpoints every single round.

I think that a DM who makes his monsters think: "This character has more total hp so his surges are worth more, therefore if he is healed it will negate more of our actions" is meta-gaming for his monsters and should cut it out.

 

[Switchback]

That said, the paladin in our group always gets really excited when his mark tries to attack someone else and he gets to throw on some automatic damage. And even if the damage isn't enough of a deterrent, the defender is STILL defending, he is providing his buddies a free +2 to AC.

This is incredibly important information as well. If a particular Paladin loves to dish out damage on creatures that avoid him, this might be a tactic favored by a DM, and that a group can have fun with often.

But it is is very much worth considering on a Paladin by Paladin basis. Is a player enjoying his class and role? It is also quite possible someone chose a Paladin because they thought it would be fun to be the rock of the party, defending the group by playing the meatshield that gets beat on.

How much fun would a player like that be having, trying to chase around critters every turn and being forced to max his damage like a Rogue to feel useful? If a player is endlessly frustrated by the DM's tactics, then it might be time to review the sections of the DM guide that explain the idea of 'fun' and also that the game is not a deathmatch pitting the DM against the players.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Despite the kludgey and entirely irksome death-beams-with-no-save that paladins throw off, 4E has not mechanically solved the problem of making tanks, sorry, "defenders", sticky.

It's still and RPG, there's again more emphasis on tactical movement than in the previous ed, and player's decisions are supposed to make a difference. If 'defenders' had some sort of mechanically hardwired 'aggro' that just caused monsters to attack them no matter what the players chose to do, that would be lost.

The fighter and paladin have mechanics that can be used to help them fulfill the 'defender' role more easily than they could in 3e. The player still has to work at it, though.

 

[Toras]

As an often player of Paladins and the like, I find that insulting the monster's lineage and religion are great ways of getting them to focus on you. Also, you can break one of his legs and leave him less able to move. Also, tying your arms togather with some sort of material or adhesive is also a good way to get things in close and brutal.

 

[Regicide]

I think that a DM who makes his monsters think: "This character has more total hp so his surges are worth more, therefore if he is healed it will negate more of our actions" is meta-gaming for his monsters and should cut it out.

a) "Monsters" include beings with INT scores VASTLY greater than your own, as well as a lot of NPC human/oids who, given DnD's XP grinding, have probably seen lots of combat before themselves.
b) "Monsters" with at least approaching average human intelligence should easily be able to determine that beefy war wise paladin is going to have more endurance and toughness than puny guy cowering in the back in light armour. Why wouldn't they?

 

[Regicide]

Wow you really are unfamiliar with the game.

The difference in amount healed per surge usually amounts to a very small amount. Number of healing surges is irrelevent because it's extremely unlikely the monsters are going to use them all up in one fight. Seriously we are usually talking a difference of maybe 1-2 points healing for healing the defender vs. healing the wizard. And possibly not even that if your healing a striker or leader.

A 1 point swing means the defender has no more than 7 HPs more than the wizard. This MAY be true at level 1, however it quickly becomes untrue. Even by just level 15 a Paladin can easily have a healing surge of 10 or more points than a wizard.

1 does not equal 10. 1 is not "insignificantly" less than 10.

And again.....there is no significant difference between hitting the two, and the healing difference is minor.

*shakes head* You're just arguing for the point of arguing, why? Trying to claim that defenders with the best AC in the party are usually going to be no higher than 2 more than the character with the worst AC in the party is laughable. As I've stated, but you can't seem to grasp, even a 5 point AC difference, a very likely difference when the wizard is picking +damage magic items and the paladin is going after AC, means that often the wizard will be getting hit 30% more than the defender AFTER getting the +2 AC buff from the mark.

Again... Being hit 30% more is not insignificant. I can't help but roll my eyes when you try to claim it is.

Seriously, though you've outright said that you have never played the game. I and other people posting here have. Why are you even posting here about gameplay experience? You've been asked by mods to stop posting at all on these forums.

I've stated I've played the game. In this thread even. You must be having difficulty reading things. As for your statement that you've played the game, come on, Paladins with at best 2 AC more than wizards and no more than 7 HP more than wizards, be honest.

 

[IanArgent]

Hit points and healing surges are purely metagame mechanics. The only thing a character should be able to observe (on either side of the screen) is whether their opponent is "bloodied" or not. There is no "in-game" explanation for or observation of hit points. At that point, the whole premise of the monsters targeting the people with less hit points fails. Everyone knows the hit point status of their own side because, honestly, there's no way to prevent it (especially on the monsters' side). That does NOT mean they should have any idea how much HP any of their opponents have - just whether they are bloodied or not.

Also, remember that PCs are by definition special people; they have attacks beyond "basic attack". I would find it metagaming to have a monster know the details of every PC class. Elites or solos might know the basics of character classes they have encountered; but the vast majority of PC-race NPCs in the world do not have PC classes.

OTOH, armor types are observable, as are defense values. (When attacking a defense, if an attack roll succeeds against an easy DC for the target's level (see p 42) the attacker knows the value of the targeted defense score regardless of the success or failure of the actual attack). Likewise, the attacker can track how much damage they've done to the target and correlate that with the enemy's "bloodied" state, giving them a rough guide of how much HP they have left. (Yes, I know this conflicts slightly with the metagame nature of HP - OTOH, if HP are a metagame artifact, they are a metagame artifact when dealt as well, and everyone can be generally aware of the metagame artifacts they have generated or are under the effects of).

 

[FadedC]

A 1 point swing means the defender has no more than 7 HPs more than the wizard. This MAY be true at level 1, however it quickly becomes untrue. Even by just level 15 a Paladin can easily have a healing surge of 10 or more points than a wizard.
1 does not equal 10. 1 is not "insignificantly" less than 10.

A difference of less then 7 hit points is not just a may first level, it's likely. TWF rangers in fact will have more hp then a fighter who doesn't take toughness. I'll grant you this does tend to change at higher level.

*shakes head* You're just arguing for the point of arguing, why? Trying to claim that defenders with the best AC in the party are usually going to be no higher than 2 more than the character with the worst AC in the party is laughable. As I've stated, but you can't seem to grasp, even a 5 point AC difference, a very likely difference when the wizard is picking +damage magic items and the paladin is going after AC, means that often the wizard will be getting hit 30% more than the defender AFTER getting the +2 AC buff from the mark.
.

Funny that the person who is posting on the 4e boards despite his lack of intention to ever play it, and despite the very moderators of the board asking him to stop, is accusing me of arguing for the sake or arguing. I've already shown you the math on how wizards can and often will have acs in the same range as defenders, which I notice you have completely ignored. You seem to be arguing that the mage will never invest in magic armor and will be running around in +0 robes at level 30. The game assumes that everyone maintains magic armor, weapons, and a neck slot within a few levels of their level. As a result the mage should never be more then one + behind the defender.

Again... Being hit 30% more is not insignificant. I can't help but roll my eyes when you try to claim it is.

Just like I can't help but roll my eyes at the fact that you continue to claim there will be an 8 point ac difference, despite all the math that's been given to show that there will not. If your so convinced this is the case, please lay out a wizard with leather armor and a good int who has an ac 8 less then a comparable level defender. Maker sure to give them all magic items reasonable for their level.

I've stated I've played the game. In this thread even. You must be having difficulty reading things. As for your statement that you've played the game, come on, Paladins with at best 2 AC more than wizards and no more than 7 HP more than wizards, be honest.

Funny I went through the thread and you never said that, but I'll be more then happy to admit I'm wrong if you link the post where you did. You have said in other threads however that you threw away your books and have no intention to play. But maybe you played in d&d experience or something like that. As for lack of reading, I'm not the one who is completely ignoring all the math showing defender vs. wizard ac. In fact the mage in my group at lvl 1 has an ac exactly 1 point less then my scale and shield fighter. I will grant you that you may be right about healing surge values at paragon though, but certainly not at heroic.

So anyway the ball is in your court if your so convinced. Stat out a comparible wizard and fighter, say around level 10. And show how the wizard has an ac 8 points less despite making a strong effort to keep his ac high. You can even give the wizard a 1 point lower enhancement bonus on his leather armor if you want to reflect his greater focus on magic implements.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Well currently my lvl 4 TWF ranger has an AC of 20. The paladin has an AC of 23. So if the creature is marked then I'm not that much easier to hit than the Paladin and they will burn for it a little bit. We also have a fighter in the group who is has a 22 AC, so if they choose to go after me then not only do they not have a better chance to hit me but they will take more attacks from the fighter to do so. Also, my hp are not much worse then either of the tanks at lvl 4, I know this will widen up as we level but I would still not describe the ranger as Squishy. In fact my AC will continue to climb due to my increase in Dex, while the defenders will not get this benefit in their heavy armor, so while our hp gap will widen, I will get the edge in AC eventually, especially if the creature gets a -2 for being marked.

In fact, as I plan on multiclassing into Fighter at lvl 10 to get that nifty daily where I auto-damage any foes near me as a stance, I kinda hope they do decide to surround me so I can earn my rep as a damage dealer