Artifacts vs all else

[Alzrius]

I looked there too, and it has a passage under creating epic magic items in the caster level section

"Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic levels. Because these spell slots aren’t automatically gained at a particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don’t have a minimum caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of 10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level."

That seems to say in a very round about way, that it is possible.

That seems to be talking about if you used Improved Spell Capacity and Improved Highten Spell together to, for example, put a Heightened fireball with a 10th-level spell slot into an epic item. It doesn't seem to hold for actual epic spells.

 

[Crothian]

That seems to be talking about if you used Improved Spell Capacity and Improved Highten Spell together to put a Heightened fireball with a 10th-level spell slot into an epic item. It doesn't seem to hold for actual epic spells.

don't epic spells though have a default spell level for when they interact with things that need a spell level?

 

[Alzrius]

don't epic spells though have a default spell level for when they interact with things that need a spell level?

They do for the purposes of dispelling, etc.

I cede that the text may be ambiguous on that part, but that's only because the ELH had by that point, already out-and-out stated that you can't have epic spells in epic magic items. It'd be nice to have had that in the SRD, but that it's not there doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Kirin'Tor]

I looked there too, and it has a passage under creating epic magic items in the caster level section

"Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic levels. Because these spell slots aren’t automatically gained at a particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don’t have a minimum caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of 10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level."

That seems to say in a very round about way, that it is possible.

I think that's referring only to the expanded slots you get from taking the Feat (what's it called) that gives you one slot higher than yoru highest....but it's pretty darn vague.

 

[Crothian]

They do for the purposes of dispelling, etc.

I cede that the text may be ambiguous on that part, but that's only because the ELH had by that point, already out-and-out stated that you can't have epic spells in epic magic items. It'd be nice to have had that in the SRD, but that it's not there doesn't make it any less true.

Perhaps, but there's a catch 22 there. If I wanted to publish epic spell based items, I am only allowed to use what is in the SRD and in doing so I am allowed. And boom we have legally made epic spell epic items. Even though the ELH might contridict the SRD, the SRD is what is important for being published, and its what is published that matters to players. Also the ELH is 3.0 so it can be argued to be absolete

 

[Alzrius]

Perhaps, but there's a catch 22 there. If I wanted to publish epic spell based items, I am only allowed to use what is in the SRD and in doing so I am allowed. And boom we have legally made epic spell epic items. Even though the ELH might contridict the SRD, the SRD is what is important for being published, and its what is published that matters to players. Also the ELH is 3.0 so it can be argued to be absolete

Actually, I just double-checked. Turns out that passage IS in the SRD after all. End of the second paragraph after the bullet points.

I guess that's that then.

 

[Crothian]

Actually, I just double-checked. Turns out that passage IS in the SRD after all. End of the second paragraph after the bullet points.

I guess that's that then.

Good, that makes me feel better that it is there, thanks!!

 

[Yair]

What is the difference between artifacts, weapons of legacy, magic items, epic items, and relics? Can't epic items be made that rival or surpass artifacts or relics? Are their epic advancement rules for weapons of legacy?

Artifacts are a cop out. They are magical items that answer to no rules, are completely ad hoc, and offer no in-game mechanism for their creation.
Epic magic items can rival, and exceed, the power of some presented artifcats (in the DMG or elsewhere). Some artifacts, however, have inherently unbalancing or unlimited capabiltiies that would really make for a bad item in the hands of PCs at any level, epic included.
The worse offense of artifacts, IMO, is that they are not tied in to the class system that governs the PC's power. Magic items are tied to it by their market price and wealth-by-level guidelines, weapons of legacy and other quirky solutions use different mechanisms but still provide some guidelines as to the levels at which one can give the artifact to the players without overshadowing the other characters and the ramifications of it stacking with other gear. Artifacts just ignore this.
IMO, artifacts are just bad design, an artifact (huh!) of older editions that should have perished in the transition to 3e but sadly didn't.

So there.

 

[RedWick]

Artifacts are a cop out. They are magical items that answer to no rules, are completely ad hoc, and offer no in-game mechanism for their creation.
Epic magic items can rival, and exceed, the power of some presented artifcats (in the DMG or elsewhere). Some artifacts, however, have inherently unbalancing or unlimited capabiltiies that would really make for a bad item in the hands of PCs at any level, epic included.
The worse offense of artifacts, IMO, is that they are not tied in to the class system that governs the PC's power. Magic items are tied to it by their market price and wealth-by-level guidelines, weapons of legacy and other quirky solutions use different mechanisms but still provide some guidelines as to the levels at which one can give the artifact to the players without overshadowing the other characters and the ramifications of it stacking with other gear. Artifacts just ignore this.
IMO, artifacts are just bad design, an artifact (huh!) of older editions that should have perished in the transition to 3e but sadly didn't.

So there.

To be fair, artifacts are only supposed to be used as plot mechanisms meant to propel the storyline forward, and *not* as every day, casual magic items. Most artifacts have (or should have) significant negative side effects to avoid their casual use (think The One Ring and it's happyfun corrputing effect), and should be taken away/destroyed once their usefulness to the storyline disappears.

 

[Crothian]

Also, artifacts are not easy to use in the game so only a DM who really knows what he is doing with them should use themm. Inexperienced DMs can have them ruin their game and then not see the point of them since they got used incorrectly.