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Artifacts

Ten

First Post
I think what the issue is is that we just define "Artifact" as two different things. To me, the sentience of the object, the transient nature of it is exactly what MAKES it an artifact. Anything less and it is just a magic item. A very powerful magic item perhaps. Named even, that's fine. There is a long history of named magic items that are not artifacts. These items could even have a long history!

What do you need from an artifact that can't be obtained by a proper magic item? Is it just the name that you don't like? Do you feel that things labeled "Artifacts" should be more mundane than they are?
 

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Mort

Legend
Supporter
Bishmon said:
It's the requirement of those consequences that I have issue with. (Well, that's part of the issue.)

I've got no problem with some artifacts being sentient, having personalities, being unreliable, disappearing, etc.

I'm just not a fan of that being the basic premise of an artifact.

It's not a requirement it's a suggestion for the DM to move his campaign onward. If you have a different suggestion (the epic destiny one's not bad) a good DM should be able to work with that - again plot device.
 

Bishmon

First Post
Ten said:
I think what the issue is is that we just define "Artifact" as two different things. To me, the sentience of the object, the transient nature of it is exactly what MAKES it an artifact.
I'm not too familiar with the Dragonlance campaign setting, but are Dragonlances sentient and transient?
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Bishmon said:
It's the requirement of those consequences that I have issue with. (Well, that's part of the issue.)

I've got no problem with some artifacts being sentient, having personalities, being unreliable, disappearing, etc.

I'm just not a fan of that being the basic premise of an artifact.
Well, if you're the DM you don't have to use them.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
It needs to be stressed.. an artifact is not a magic item. It is not a tool.

It is an NPC.

You are very unlikely to have Elminster as a pet.
 

AuraSeer

Prismatic Programmer
Bishmon said:
Ok, if artifacts should be part of a cool campaign arc, why does that necessitate sentience and getting rid of the item when it no longer serves the plot? In fact, the latter of which seems more likely to cause an obvious horrible railroad than a cool campaign arc[...]
Artifacts disappear at DM discretion. So if a horrible railroad occurs, blame your DM.

Easy, yeah?
 

Ten

First Post
Bishmon said:
I'm not too familiar with the Dragonlance campaign setting, but are Dragonlances sentient and transient?

Alright, that wasn't the best example, but hell, there are otherones within Dragonlance. The Blue Crystal Staff was a staff that could heal the wounds of anyone it touched. A barbarian found it, and it ended up protecting him and his beloved by teleporting them thousands of miles from their home. In the end, even though it could heal wounds, they left it at a temple to restore the temple to it's past glory. It exhibited signs of both sentience (Or at least a God watching over it closely, which is the exact same thing mechanically) and transience (You had to believe it would be worth it to lug around, being so powerful, but its purpose had been served, and it was needed elsewhere and so it went)
 

robertliguori

First Post
Mort said:
I'm just going by your responses - you want the item and effects but not the consequences of dealing with a potentially dangerous entity that may leave at an inopportune moment - please correct what I'm getting wrong (not being snarky here).
Artifacts aren't entities, is the problem. They are little black holes of Plot, that exist on a separate level from the rest of the universe. Having Vecna's hand and eye have power over me when I can hunt him down and dismember him make for poor drama and bad plotting; there should be in-game recognition that artifacts, while they have their own agenda, can be fought and mastered within the construct the rules provide.

Here's an alternate mechanic; artifacts are sources of virtual residuum. They generate extremely small amounts of residuum naturally, can gain more residuum when used to perform actions in line with their function, and lose it when forced to perform actions out of line with their function. Artifacts can spend their virtual residuum to fuel rituals and pseudo-rituals. If you use an artifact to fulfill its function, it likes you, and uses its rituals to benefit you. If you start fighting the artifact, it fights back, but you can theoretically ablate away the artifact's power by enduring the worst it can throw out, and keep it from recharging by continuing to use it in a way contrary to its function. One default artifact ritual would be the teleport-away; all artifacts should be able to escape from being sealed in a block of lead and forgotten. However, if you have the cojones to bear the One Ring and use its power to sustain and reveal instead of corrupt and conceal, then you should eventually reach the point where you've struck repeatedly at what makes the Ring the Ring, and you should have something to show for it.

Rules empower players. Rules serve as narrative contracts between player and DM; by laying down rules for the world and sticking to them, you provide a wealth of mechanisms for the players to engage the world and engage in activities of interest. "This arbitrary event happens, and nothing in your power can affect or prevent it." is the opposite of player empowerment. The essence of play in an RPG is the making of meaningful choices; if there are no meaningful choices a character can make with regards to artifacts, then artifacts are not a meaningful element of play. The PCs are characters of interest not because they have infinite narrative control or power, but because they use their limited resources in interesting ways to achieve great ends. Artifacts, done properly, can be similarly interesting; or they can be 'will of the GM' buttons, and about as interesting.

Because at some point artifacts outlive their usefulness; they may become too much of a crutch or prevent the PC's from moving on to their next adventure (or by moving on the artifact may introduce the next adventure). Yes it's a fine line, but good DMing always is

Reliance on narrative tropes unjustified and unremarked-upon in-world is not widely regarded as good DMing by players. If you want artifacts that have the ability to wander at (your) will, you can't tell artifact-destruction stories. If you want artifacts to be masterable by the players, then you can tell Lord of the Rings...but you can also tell an expy of Midnight, in which the players seize the power of the Ring, eat Sauron's soul, then rip Middle-Earth out of the Song and embark on a dark crusade to bring the rest of the world under their heel. If this isn't the kind of story you want told, then the proper way to respond to this kind of player action is out-of-character. If you attempt to use in-world elements to corral your plot, then you have no room to complain when those elements are overcome in-world and the players cheerfully gallop away across the unplotted plains.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
robertliguori said:
Artifacts aren't entities, is the problem. They are little black holes of Plot, that exist on a separate level from the rest of the universe. Having Vecna's hand and eye have power over me when I can hunt him down and dismember him

Maybe you can't.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
robertliguori said:
Artifacts aren't entities, is the problem. They are little black holes of Plot, that exist on a separate level from the rest of the universe. Having Vecna's hand and eye have power over me when I can hunt him down and dismember him make for poor drama and bad plotting; there should be in-game recognition that artifacts, while they have their own agenda, can be fought and mastered within the construct the rules provide.

I never said anything different. Having an artifact run roughshod over your players is Bad DMing - just like having an uber NPC or most DM PC's is bad DMing. Inherent to a good artifact should be mechanisms for the players to do what they want/need with it. But actually artifacts are entities- they just happen to be entities that are plot devices, the two are by no means mutually exclusive.

robertliguori said:
Here's an alternate mechanic; artifacts are sources of virtual residuum. They generate extremely small amounts of residuum naturally, can gain more residuum when used to perform actions in line with their function, and lose it when forced to perform actions out of line with their function. Artifacts can spend their virtual residuum to fuel rituals and pseudo-rituals. If you use an artifact to fulfill its function, it likes you, and uses its rituals to benefit you. If you start fighting the artifact, it fights back, but you can theoretically ablate away the artifact's power by enduring the worst it can throw out, and keep it from recharging by continuing to use it in a way contrary to its function. One default artifact ritual would be the teleport-away; all artifacts should be able to escape from being sealed in a block of lead and forgotten. However, if you have the cojones to bear the One Ring and use its power to sustain and reveal instead of corrupt and conceal, then you should eventually reach the point where you've struck repeatedly at what makes the Ring the Ring, and you should have something to show for it.

This is essentially an expansion on the rules and not bad but since artifacts are plot devices - simpler is better IMO.

robertliguori said:
Rules empower players. Rules serve as narrative contracts between player and DM; by laying down rules for the world and sticking to them, you provide a wealth of mechanisms for the players to engage the world and engage in activities of interest. "This arbitrary event happens, and nothing in your power can affect or prevent it." is the opposite of player empowerment. The essence of play in an RPG is the making of meaningful choices; if there are no meaningful choices a character can make with regards to artifacts, then artifacts are not a meaningful element of play. The PCs are characters of interest not because they have infinite narrative control or power, but because they use their limited resources in interesting ways to achieve great ends. Artifacts, done properly, can be similarly interesting; or they can be 'will of the GM' buttons, and about as interesting.

Who said anything about "not being able to prevent it." the artifact moving on is, again, just a reminder to the DM to not let it control the campaign. It is the DM's job, duty, etc. to make sure the players feel completely involved in the story line (if for example the players show no interest in an artifact plot line forcing it is terrible DMing). But it should also be the DM's job to make sure the players understand that an introduced artifact is not just another magic item but something they need to be wary, careful and watchful of (as said above more an NPC than an item). 3e tried the "everything must have a hard and fast rule" approach - it actually works quite well most of the time but for some things a more loose approach serves better.


robertliguori said:
Reliance on narrative tropes unjustified and unremarked-upon in-world is not widely regarded as good DMing by players. If you want artifacts that have the ability to wander at (your) will, you can't tell artifact-destruction stories. If you want artifacts to be masterable by the players, then you can tell Lord of the Rings...but you can also tell an expy of Midnight, in which the players seize the power of the Ring, eat Sauron's soul, then rip Middle-Earth out of the Song and embark on a dark crusade to bring the rest of the world under their heel. If this isn't the kind of story you want told, then the proper way to respond to this kind of player action is out-of-character. If you attempt to use in-world elements to corral your plot, then you have no room to complain when those elements are overcome in-world and the players cheerfully gallop away across the unplotted plains.

Again the key is to recognize an artifact for what it is - a plot device and proceed accordingly. Proceed accordingly simply means whatever way is best for the players as well as the story (you actually should distinguish players from characters here, sometimes things may be very unkind to characters, but great for the players - such as sacrificing the character for the destruction of the item and the greater good).

ok off to bed.
 

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