Artificer; a class running wild?

[Sue Bloodbucket]

Good Evening Ladys and Gentleman,

i will state my question first:
Witch game-mechanism is sneakin' out of my view each time i want to check what in the world could make an artificer stop scribing 130 scrolls of cure light wounds per day?

Do not be mistaken, i love the artificer class and don't even mind playing one once my warforged ranger breaks down.
But i believe there is something like a loophole in that class...
It says that the artificer could mimic every spell he wants to imbue into something (e.g. a scoll) via a use magic device check.
What is not stated there is if he is loosing an infusion of some sort emulating the spell to scribe.
So what would come between a well-to-do artificer (with lots of inks and papers) from always having the right spell at hand in no-time? [you need one day per 1k gp {p.287 DMG}].
Is there a rule that i have missed?
Or is a Scroll a "Magic ITEM" per se and needs a minimum time of one day each? [p.283 DMG]
Please tell me if you know for sure. And please don't wait until next thursday when that nasty argument will eventualy rise up again and disturb the otherwise nice rp-evening.

thanks
Sue

 

[shilsen]

Yes, a scroll is a magic item (which is why its creation is under the magic item section ) and takes a day to create. More importantly, the artificer loses XP like everyone else to create magic items, so the amount of available XP is an important balancing factor.

 

[Doomhawk]

Shilsen's right, scrolls take 1 per 1000 gp, to a minimum of 1 day, so it would take the artificer an EXCEEDINGLY long time to scribe all of those scrolls. With his Craft Reserve, the Artificer doesn't have as many problems with XP costs as other characters, but it's still an issue depending on just how much stuff he makes.
Also, remember that unlike a caster, an Artificer might actually lose all of his work when crafting an item if he rolls poorly on his Use Magic Device checks. This doesn't happen so much with lower-level items (like 1st-level scrolls), but more valuable items can be a real risk.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Don't forget that multiple spells per scroll may be crafted of course.

 

[Sue Bloodbucket]

Don't forget that multiple spells per scroll may be crafted of course.

Exactly... That was the point. Do they all go off at once? Or can they be read one after another?
Give me a hint pals. Where do i find the rules concerning that?

thanks for the answers so far
Sue

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

I would like to point out page 287 of the DMG, where it is stated that "the act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the caster has rested and regained his spells.

And while infusions are not spells per se, they "Function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells." ( EbCS page 31 "infusions" ).
Which, IMHO, reads in conjuction with the SRD rule - "the act of writing triggers the prepared spell (aka infusion) , making it..etc etc."



From the SRD
"The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.
The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted."

"Only one item at a time". "Fairly quiet, comfortable and well lit place", "Creating an item requires one day per 1,000gp in the item's base price" plus "The caster works for 8 hours a day. He cannot rush the process".

So, it's one scroll a day (unless the scroll would cost more than 1000gp to create ), after eight hours work (some may argue/nitpick, that one might use a lesser amount of time, proportional to the worth of any single scroll. House rule territory, that ). Also, the Artificer will possibly/probably require several "Use magic device" rolls to emulate, say a cleric spell (emulate cleric, emulate divine focus, emulate any other components ) when scribing anything not from his very own spell list. And far too many places will be entirely inappropropriate for a spell. Ruin one spell when inscribing = ruin the entire scroll, although an Artificer may just do a re-roll 1/day to help with this, according to the DMG and EbCS, page 32, "last ditch effort".

From the SRD concerning "Use Magic Device"
"Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill."

(which is of course superseded by the Artificers special power gained at 13th level "skill mastery" which does allow him to do just that)

Still, unless he achieves 13th level, an Artificer faces a lot of rolls for more complicated items - which may be affected by adverse conditions , say , penalties for inappropriate places to conduct his work in ( like in the middle of a snowstorm, dark caves, very wet environments - hard on inks etc. )




As for multiple spells on any single scroll - page 237 DMG states that each additional spell on a scroll requires an extra foot in length to fit the spell in - scroll size may therefore limit the number of spells on a single specimen (say, maximum of 3'-6' for any single sheet of vellum, hide or parchment, less for pre-industrial age hand-siffted paper.). Notably, table 7-21 of the DMG limits random scrolls to 1D3 (minor, most common scroll) to a pretty rare 1D6 spells.
Which would mean, a maximum length of 6'/scroll.
Also, extra length scrolls may just mean a real hassle when looking for that particular spell far up/down on the scroll (whichever way you roll it up, one end is far inside the roll ). With multiples of the same spell, of course that is less of a problem

Any single spell on a scroll is activated singly, one at a time (pages 237 and 238, DMG) - hence no "salvoes" activation of - like 6 fireballs - ll spells on a scroll at once.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sue: A scroll containing two copies of Cure Light Wounds is almost mechanically identical to two scrolls containing a single copy of Cure Light Wounds each. The only real difference is that, in the first case, you only have to pull the scroll from your pouch once to cast from it.

Uzagi: Artificers follow different rules for UMD for magical item creation. They only need to make a single check for each spell during the creation of an item - but a failure on that check results in complete ruination of the item they are attempting to create.

EDIT: Also, one of my DMs, in the past, instituted the following rule for multiple-spell scrolls: No scroll may hold more than 9 spell levels.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Witch game-mechanism is sneakin' out of my view each time i want to check what in the world could make an artificer stop scribing 130 scrolls of cure light wounds per day?

It's not precisely written in the DMG but I recall the designers saying that each spell is intended to be a separate item (while allowed to be attached to each other - scroll of spells). This is implicit in the rule DMG p283.

However, many games still rule that a single scroll containing multiple spells counts as a single item. The maximum 1st level spells would be 40 on one scroll (normally limited by slots but not in the case of an artificer). This is an extrapolation of the random scroll tables showing multiple spells on a single scroll.

What is not stated there is if he is loosing an infusion of some sort emulating the spell to scribe.
So what would come between a well-to-do artificer (with lots of inks and papers) from always having the right spell at hand in no-time?

Artificers scribing scrolls (or any item) are not limited by infusions per day like other crafters. The minimum time is still one day so it is not effectively "no-time".

Treated as a single item, a scroll of 40 1st level spells at CL1 would require 40 UMD checks at DC21 for success. One check could be failed as long as the subsequent last chance check succeeds. Two failures or a failure on the last chance check would waste the XP and gold for all the spells.

Or is a Scroll a "Magic ITEM" per se and needs a minimum time of one day each? (p.283 DMG)

I would treat this is the definitive rule over the random scroll table.

Please tell me if you know for sure.

Sorry, this one is questionable within the RAW.

And please don't wait until next thursday when that nasty argument will eventualy rise up again and disturb the otherwise nice rp-evening.

Tie goes to the DM.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Artificers scribing scrolls (or any item) are not limited by infusions per day like other crafters.

Now, what rule (SRD, book or even "Sage advice" ) do you base that statement on ? The description for infusions clearly states that infusions are spells ( page 31 EbCS) for all purposes, except where infusion specific rules apply. Infusion's specific rules FAIL to to say that artificers inscribe scrolls/create items without expending spells or infusions. Which means they are bound by the same rules for scribing scrolls (or creating any other item ) as are clerics, wizardsm druids or sorcererors, not to mention everybody else. Which require expenditure of a spell of the relevant level into the item being created.

In effect, by your erroneous take on the rules, an artificer could write a scroll (say of "disintegrate") at first level simply by rolling high enough on his UMD check (not all that difiicult, given the enormous synergy bonuses for UMD with reagrd to scrolls) , and expending the necessary money. Without ever even using up a spell/infusion for it ?

Sorry to say, EbCS page 32 specifically states different from your opinion : "He must meet the caster level prequisite, inculding the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand or scroll."

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Uzagi: Artificers follow different rules for UMD for magical item creation. They only need to make a single check for each spell during the creation of an item - but a failure on that check results in complete ruination of the item they are attempting to create.

EDIT: Also, one of my DMs, in the past, instituted the following rule for multiple-spell scrolls: No scroll may hold more than 9 spell levels.

Well, page 32 EbCS definitely says differently. To quote : The artificer must make a successful (UMD) check for each prequisite for each item he creates.

Example . An artificer wants to create an item usually creatable by lawful clerics of 7th level, using a fourth level spell and possible only to elven clerics

An artificer does not have cleric spells as part of his normal spellist : UMD check for cleric

The artificer does not have the required level for creating a specific item : another UMD check for level

The artificer is not of the lawful alignment required to create said item : separate UMD check for alignment

An artificer coincidentally is also not an elf : separate UMD check for faking said racial requirement.

This would be four individual tests. Now where do the rules specify a different procedure ?

Nice house rule on the maximum levels available on scrolls, btw.