Artificers, or any spellcaster, and scribe spells feat

[drothgery]

But an artificer can't be the "creator" of a scroll that a wizard uses as a source to scribe into his spell book since as the creater he gives the scroll its arcane/divine descriptor and as an artificer it has neither.

So it seems like the "two scroll" method above should work, though, for either an artificer and a wizard (for arcane spells) or an artificer and archivist (for divine spells).

The idea is

Step 1. Artificer makes artificer scroll of desired spell (artificer pays the XP cost).

Step 2. Artificer and wizard collaborate on making arcane scroll (wizard pays the XP cost).

Step 3. Wizard uses new arcane scroll as source for his spellbook.

(sub archivist for wizard and divine for arcane to do the divine variant)

It's even better for the archivist, as he can pick up non-cleric divine spells pretty easily this way.

 

[irdeggman]

So it seems like the "two scroll" method above should work, though, for either an artificer and a wizard (for arcane spells) or an artificer and archivist (for divine spells).

The idea is

Step 1. Artificer makes artificer scroll of desired spell (artificer pays the XP cost).

Step 2. Artificer and wizard collaborate on making arcane scroll (wizard pays the XP cost).

Step 3. Wizard uses new arcane scroll as source for his spellbook.

(sub archivist for wizard and divine for arcane to do the divine variant)

It's even better for the archivist, as he can pick up non-cleric divine spells pretty easily this way.

Should work, but except for picking up non-clerical divine spells, it is not really worth it is it?

Unless the wizard can't find (or research) the spell himself it is going to cost him more since he has to take more time (and the multiple spellcraft checks involved here) and pay an xp cost as well.

Note that unless the spell is on the wizard's spell list (except for the variants listed) he still can't learn it with separately "researching" the spell regardless of whether it is an arcan spell or not.

This has come up before with wizard and clerics combining to create scrolls that no one can use due the combination of spell and divine/arcane type.

 

[Staffan]

Hmm, That means a wizard with a cleric as a friend can make arcane scrolls of any spell that appears on both the Cleric and Sor/Wiz lists, then scribe that spell into his spellbook, at a fairly low cost for low-level spells.

I don't see this as a problem. The game already assumes that you can get access to most spells for the cost of 50 gp/spell level. That means that you can get 3rd-level or higher spells cheaper by just buying spell book excerpts (2nd level or higher become cheaper if you consider each XP worth 5 gp - 100 gp vs 75 gp + 6 XP).

Plus, how many 1st and 2nd level spells are there on both the cleric and wizard list? Ignoring domain spells and just looking at the PHB, they are:

1st - Cause fear, Comprehend Languages, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Protection from (Alignment), Summon Monster I.
2nd - Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, Hold Person, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy, Shatter, Summon Monster II

These spells aren't exactly powerhouses, with the possible exception of Hold Person (especially since it's a 2nd level spell for clerics and 3rd for wizards).

 

[green slime]

And therefore be unwieldy and useless in battle. Now from what I recall of scrolls it is a normal action to finish a spell on a scroll. So it still makes no sense.

You are thinking too much. It is a game. Meant for enjoyment.

Or do you complain that castles move horizontally and vertically in a game of chess?

 

[DM-Rocco]

You are thinking too much. It is a game. Meant for enjoyment.

Or do you complain that castles move horizontally and vertically in a game of chess?

I think a great many people try to apply 'real-world' logic into the fantasy game. If you have ever seen threads like, "I left my decanter of endless water open and lost it, how long before it floods the world?" you know what I mean.

The funny thing, too me anyway, is when someone replies to that thread and starts into some complicated math solution and comes up with a fixed number of days, assuming the planets stay in the same alignment and the production of timber in some distant third world nation remian unchanged. They are fun to read, so don't get me wrong, but there are always those that take such things to heart and play a fanstasy game with real world logic.

The best thing to go is treat the game as a game and play it, even though I clearly don't agree with all the rules myself. It just saves many headaches.

 

[Kalshane]

2nd ed had no rules about using your spellbook as a scroll. At least not in the core rules, Tome of Magic, Spells & Magic, or Book of Artifacts. I am reasonably sure the 1e core rules didn't have any such rules either, though it's possible that Unearthed Arcana did.

This is my recollection as well. I'd never heard of a wizard casting a spell from a spellbook outside of this thread. (Barring one of the Drizzt novels, anyway, which are notorious for playing fast and loose with the rules.)

 

[Staffan]

I've seen lots of people mention it, so it was probably from a source that was at least semi-official. Possibly Dragon, or maybe even Unearthed Arcana. Anyway, there was nothing about it in 2nd ed, only 1st.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I've seen lots of people mention it, so it was probably from a source that was at least semi-official. Possibly Dragon, or maybe even Unearthed Arcana. Anyway, there was nothing about it in 2nd ed, only 1st.

...and, I never claimed it was in 2nd ed, just first

Anyway, regardless, it is off topic. So, who can answer the question, do you need a 19 wisdom to create a 9th level cleric spell as an Artificer, or does the UMD and infusions and scribe scroll feats from artificer take care of that?

 

[irdeggman]

Anyway, regardless, it is off topic. So, who can answer the question, do you need a 19 wisdom to create a 9th level cleric spell as an Artificer, or does the UMD and infusions and scribe scroll feats from artificer take care of that?

Alright let's see.

First off an artificer does not create clerical scrolls. Any itme an artificer creates is neither divine nor arcane (see the errata on this).

He follows the Item Creation rules (pg 32 of the ECS) for creating a scroll with a clerical spell on it. He follows the "normal" item creation rules for creating a scroll with an infusion on it - but again it is neither arcane nor divine.

Under Item creation pg 32 of ECS:

Artificer must make a successful UMD check (DC 20 + Caster Level). To create the item. Note that the caster level is the minimum required to cast the spell (per the examples).

“He must meet the caster level prerequisite, including the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand or scroll.”

He does not need to meet the ability score prequisites for this use (it is not specified in the rules). But he still needs to make a UMD check in order to use the newly created scroll and a wizard cannot learn a spell from this item since it is not arcane.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Alright let's see.

First off an artificer does not create clerical scrolls. Any itme an artificer creates is neither divine nor arcane (see the errata on this).

He follows the Item Creation rules (pg 32 of the ECS) for creating a scroll with a clerical spell on it. He follows the "normal" item creation rules for creating a scroll with an infusion on it - but again it is neither arcane nor divine.

Under Item creation pg 32 of ECS:

Artificer must make a successful UMD check (DC 20 + Caster Level). To create the item. Note that the caster level is the minimum required to cast the spell (per the examples).

“He must meet the caster level prerequisite, including the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand or scroll.”

He does not need to meet the ability score prequisites for this use (it is not specified in the rules). But he still needs to make a UMD check in order to use the newly created scroll and a wizard cannot learn a spell from this item since it is not arcane.

I'm a little confused on this whole not Acrane/Divine thing.

First, I understand it for the infusions, they aren't either Arcane or Divine, but how does that effect items that are made by an Artificer? Is there some protection from Arcane or Divine energy that I am unaware of where it makes a difference? From what I read, it just seems like Infusions are just a different sort of magic.

Second, I don't have the book in front of me, but I don't recall that it says anywhere that items made from an Artificer are not Arcane or Divine, just the Infusions. So why does everyone keep saying that items made from an Artificer are not Arcane or Divine? Did I miss something?

Third, does it say in the errata somewhere that you can't scribe a Artificer scroll into a mages spell book, cause I can't find that rule, or any rules about Sorcerer scroll compared to Wizards scrolls? What about if you are an Artificer with Wizard levels, what happens then?

You guys keep mentioning errata on the Artificer, but mine doesn't mention any of this, perhaps I have an old file cause mine doesn't mention anything about 'items' created by Artificers as not being Divine or Arcane, just infusions.