As a DM, skills I should roll 4 PCs

[Missywelden]

A couple of the people I DM for of the 4 are fairly new and tend to Meta-Game, but in ways that are not Meta-Gaming. It is sort of hard to explain but I can handle it, so that really isn't why I need help. I need help figuring out which skills I should roll for the PCs, so they don't "know the DM rolled something, so let's be suspicious of everything now". I know that I should roll Bluff (I do ahead of time before the game starts ^^). I would like suggestions of other things to roll for ahead of time too (I haven't DMed long enough to have figured it out myself, but this Campaign is really going well and I want it to be better and better each time we play).​

 

[Plane Sailing]

Hi Missywelden,

If I were you I wouldn't roll bluff, but I'd definitely roll sense motive for them, and in some cases roll spot and search checks (i.e. when dramatically appropriate). The key element is whether they know they may have succeeded or not. If they roll their bluff skill, then after looking at their check result they can roleplay a particularly bad result if they wish, which can be fun. The uncertainty aspect of the engagement comes from your secret Sense motive check for the opponents.

One thing that we've recently had a go at rolling ahead of time is Initiative, so that when combat starts the DM just tells us what order we go in. It has been working out surprisingly well for us, and gives us a more natural feel to the start of combat, but it probably isn't for everyone

Good luck with the campaign, and I hope it goes from strength to strength!

Could I request that you don't use orange text though? Some of the moderators use orange text to indicate 'moderator voice', and it would be nice to avoid any confusion.

Thanks

 

[frankthedm]

A couple of the people I DM for of the 4 are fairly new and tend to Meta-Game, but in ways that are not Meta-Gaming. It is sort of hard to explain but I can handle it, so that really isn't why I need help. I need help figuring out which skills I should roll for the PCs, so they don't "know the DM rolled something, so let's be suspicious of everything now". I know that I should roll Bluff (I do ahead of time before the game starts ^^). I would like suggestions of other things to roll for ahead of time too (I haven't DMed long enough to have figured it out myself, but this Campaign is really going well and I want it to be better and better each time we play).

Appraise - Secret
Bluff – It would be best if players did not see the the die result on non combat uses since an NPC might play along anyways.
Decipher Script – Secret, bad things may happen.
Diplomacy – It would be best if players did not see the the die result on non combat uses since an NPC might play along anyways.
Disable Device – Secret only if the effects cannot be immediately verified
Disguise – Secret.
Forgery - Not even rolled until it is opposed
Gather Information - It would be best if players did not see the the die result
Hide - Not even rolled until it is opposed
Intimidate – It would be best if players did not see the the die result on non combat uses since an NPC might play along anyways.
Knowledge – The die roll should be secret. .
Listen - secret if the one moving silently was not about to engage in combat
Move Silently Not even rolled until it is opposed
Search – Secret
Sense Motive – Secret
Sleight Of Hand – It would be best if players did not see the the die result since an NPC might play along anyways.
Spot - secret if the hider was not about to engage in combat
Survival -Secret in regards to getting lost.
Use Rope Not even rolled until it is opposed, secret for placing a grappling hook.

 

[frankthedm]

Could I request that you don't use orange text though? Some of the moderators use orange text to indicate 'moderator voice', and it would be nice to avoid any confusion.

I thought it was;

Yellow mod text = mild warning

Orange mod text = serious warning

Red mod text = Final warning

All within the context of a mod's post on some type of behavior.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Goodness me, Frank - don't your players get to roll the dice at all?

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Missywelden - an idea that I picked up right here and that has been working out great for my group is to have each player roll a bunch of d20s at the start of the game - and record the results. Whenever you need a skill check that you don't want the player to know (or an initiative check - might start using that as well) you just look down the list and pick the next number that they rolled. The player won't even know that something is going on because you're not rolling anything (just looking at your notes right ). My players like this because it's still their actual roll, but they still don't know when they've been successful or not.


As to your actual question - it's not really that clear cut. The basic response is a Plane Sailing put it - whenever you don't want the player to know how well they've done. So some spot checks are appropriate (have they spotted a clue) while others (have they seen the ambush you're about to spring on them) don't matter so much - cause you can't metagame the combat that starts a surprise round later.

As a result you could consider it for Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft and Spot. Obviously not all of these all of the time, and how much you'll have to use them will depend on how much your players meta game.

The reason I use what some might call a large list is that how you interpret the result is important. With Forgery for example a failure by one - the character might think it's good enough but the player knows it isn't so might try again, while rolling a 1 both character and player would know it's not good enough. By contrast rolling a 1 on a knowledge check could have them convinced that they know the right information (when they don't), while failing by 1 might have them saying 'I should know this... I know I know this... why can't I remember it." It really all depends on the situation.

 

[frankthedm]

Goodness me, Frank - don't your players get to roll the dice at all?

A lot of skill rolls can have outcomes a player won't realize at first. "It would be best if players did not see the the die result" does not mean 'don't let the player roll it', it simply means options are lost if the player rolls it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The other issue is when to let players know their target DC of course. If the DC is a known and published one, then you may have to roll in secret. if they have no idea what the DC is then it doesn't matter so much if they roll (although speaking personally I always like to know the DC I'm trying to hit, as I can't shake the feeling that I can psionically influence the die roll )

Cheers

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

A lot of skill rolls can have outcomes a player won't realize at first. "It would be best if players did not see the the die result" does not mean 'don't let the player roll it', it simply means options are lost if the player rolls it.

Or of course - the player rolls it toward the DM screen and you try to block them from seeing the result. Tricky but maybe worth it if the players really want to get their hands on them dice.

 

[Missywelden]

Plane sailing:Oh sorry about my text, I will make sure not to use that colour anymore.

Thanks for all of the lists. Fortunately I never have problems with the players meta-gaming with knowing the certain DC for a check. It is usually the fact that they saw my hand move to roll the die. For instance:

They encounter a character, the character tells them a lie. I roll a Bluff check behind my DM screen. The two meta-gaming PCs see that I just did that and they don't trust anything the NPC says, even though what they say isn't outrageous at all ( A weak and frail looking NPC who looks rich hires them to do research for her and when asked why she couldn't do it herself she says she can't because she is not physically fit, but is also busy with other research). But because the PC saw me make a roll they don't trust her even though they fail their sense motives (I roll them) and it is a valid reason.

In cases like that I can't really do much. But now I roll Bluff and Sense Motive beforehand and tell the player via note if they sensed anything. That is why I needed a list, so I could prevent things like that. I dislike telling the Player they can't do something, especially if they play it well. (unless it is unrelated like if they ask to make a plasma gun or whatever).