Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Information]

In EricNoah's forum...

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11267&pagenumber=5

Monte tells us that "none of the archfiends are deities". From this, we can deduce that Asmodeus (unless he is not defined as an archfiend!) will not be given the status ascribed to him in the Guide to Hell.

I find this quite pleasent. The Guide to Hell was the worst thing to happen to devils and the Nine Hells since Planescape.

 

[Desdichado]

And I find it disappointing. I don't own Guide to Hell and never even played 2nd edition, but I really liked this idea.

Both Manual of the Planes and Legions of Hell either state or strongly hint at the idea as well, so it's hardly gone away...

 

[Information]

Both Manual of the Planes and Legions of Hell either state or strongly hint at the idea as well, so it's hardly gone away...

While MotP is canon material, Legions of Hell hardly is. And besides, Chris Pramas wrote both Guide to Hell and Legions of Hell, so it comes as no surprise that the concept is included in the latter work.

The MotP alludes to it as a "brutally repressed rumor" and ends with "Unless it is pure fancy, of course." From what Monte seems to suggest, Asmodeus will be statted as simply an archdevil and not as a deity-level entity.

The concept from Guide to Hell what terrible for a number of reasons. Asmodeus was made a greater god (which in 2nd Ed. was both omnipotent and omniscient) while the other Lords of the Nine were little more powerful than Pit Fiends, their stats simply reprinted from 1st Ed. sourcebooks!

That was a poorly done work with little insight. The whole Jazirian/Ahriman concept seemed thrown together overnight. The artwork (I cringe whenever I see Asmodeus's avatar) is simply deplorable.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I hope so. It really doesn't matter to me since in my cosmology Asmodeus is the most powerful of the race of devils(never heard of a Batezzu or whatever that word is), and definately only equal to a demigod at best. I scoured Ebay for the Guide to Hell unknowing what was within since I skipped 2e entirely. I paid 20 bucks for it only to get something that has nothing I can use for my game. I don't like the Blood war or the changes in the rulers of hell so it's kind of collecting dust now.

 

[Wolfspider]

I find the idea of the most powerful of the race of devils having anything less than deity-level power a bit silly. I mean, we're talking essentially about the Devil here. Shouldn't the Devil have some real power? Similarly, shouldn't Orcus, the Demon Prince of Undead, have some god-like power backing up his claim to fame? Or should Kyuss, the Greyhawk demigod of undead, be able to slap him down with impunity? "Bah! Demon Prince of undead? My rotting toe!"

 

[Voadam]

I enjoyed guide to hell a lot, the treatment of the big A included. I think the 3e default that archdevils and demons can't be sources of evil divine power while gods and concepts can is inconsistent and don't use it in my campaign. I like the plots, lies, and background of Asmodeus in GtH and enjoyed it as a sourcebook.

What I did not like of GtH was the Coatl good counterpart and I did not use the false religion tactic in my game but I still enjoyed the book.

So Flexor, in your game, do you have ascended mortals like St Cuthbert and Vecna? I think it would make sense for the most powerful devils and demons to ascend, and I would not see a reason to make them less powerful than, say, the orc patron Gruumsh.

It is all campaign specific choices for flavor and cosmology so YMMV.

However, Information, I agree that it is a pretty safe bet that none of the archfiends (including Asmodeus) will be deities or be able to grant cleric powers directly, at least as written up in BoVD, MM2, and ToH.

I believe references to that are in DotF and RttToEE where demon cults go through intermediary gods to provide divine power to their cults. We will have to wait for BoVD for any crunchy benefits they can grant directly.

 

[Desdichado]

Information:
The concept from Guide to Hell what terrible for a number of reasons. Asmodeus was made a greater god (which in 2nd Ed. was both omnipotent and omniscient) while the other Lords of the Nine were little more powerful than Pit Fiends, their stats simply reprinted from 1st Ed. sourcebooks!

That was a poorly done work with little insight. The whole Jazirian/Ahriman concept seemed thrown together overnight. The artwork (I cringe whenever I see Asmodeus's avatar) is simply deplorable.

You're not describing a concept that is flawed, you're describing an implementation that is flawed. Those are two very different things. The concept itself is still a good one. The implementation thereof does not sound like it was done with a lot of forethought.

Flexor:
I hope so. It really doesn't matter to me since in my cosmology Asmodeus is the most powerful of the race of devils(never heard of a Batezzu or whatever that word is), and definately only equal to a demigod at best. I scoured Ebay for the Guide to Hell unknowing what was within since I skipped 2e entirely. I paid 20 bucks for it only to get something that has nothing I can use for my game. I don't like the Blood war or the changes in the rulers of hell so it's kind of collecting dust now.

I'll recoup some of your losses there and offer you $10 for it.

 

[Nightfall]

My own opinion, I have no problem with SOME fiends haven't divine rank 0, but there are some, Asmodeus and Orcus being one of them, that SHOULD have more divine ranks than than. Still it my campaign and my world...so while it's not for everyone, I'll just settle on doing it MY way.

Btw, I don't think we know for SURE that ToH WON'T have Orcus with divine ranks. I don't believe I heard Scott say he won't! Still I'm with everyone here as being doubtful that will happen.

 

[Psion]

And I find it disappointing. I don't own Guide to Hell and never even played 2nd edition, but I really liked this idea.

So? Who cares what the books say? It's your game. It is nice when the canon supports your view, but if it doesn't, frell it! (Farscape ref., sorry.)

I am in the camp that states that the idea of making Asmodeus an overpower in 2e is dumb. However, I am also in the camp that the idea of making fiend lords and deities necessarily mutually exclusive (as espoused in DotF) is also intensely dumb and goes against the precedent of the prior editions (and thus many games).

I was happy to see domain writeups for Demon Princes in AoA. I also thought it was slick/convenient that they essentially made princes "statless" (i.e., divine) and lords confrontable. The best of both worlds.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I should say that Asmodeus is equal to a lesser deity at best, not a demigod. At least while he is on his home plane. I haven't worked out specifics since I haven't had too, but I may do it tonight when I get home from school.