Asmor's dealbreaker list

[Asmor]

Does Rolemaster count? It has races, and classes, and levels, and they're not just a cloak for points-buy (contrast HARP, also from ICE, in this respect).

Undoubtedly many of the tropes common in RM are inspired by AD&D (though by no means all of them), but in the details of both character build and action resolution it plays extremeley differently.

Not familiar with Rolemaster, but it sounds like it would count. Like I said, I don't know everything (or even particularly much) about RPGs.

 

[pawsplay]

Sounds like a good battle. But you make a special note that there were *only* 3 full round attacks, so you seem to be agreeing with the OP that a toe to toe clobberfest can get stale, and the solution is dynamic enviroments/scenerios/maneuvers with increased emphasis on mobility and tactics.

Yes, but I'm entirely disagreeing with the premise that 3e encourages clobberfests. That has not been my experience across several lengthy campaigns.

 

[Foundry of Decay]

Gah! You got me! I started reading this thread thinking of a reply along the lines of "Do we REALLY need another thread like this??".

I'm glad I read the whole post though. Heh

 

[ProfessorCirno]

My goal here was to post a parody of someone else's list of "dealbreakers" for 4th edition and explain why I'm positive that 3.x is not in my gaming future.

That's the problem. It's relevant for someone to say why they disliked what they've seen or played in 4e, as this is the 4e forums, and 4e has yet to come out.

It's not that relevant for someone to say why they disliked the already established system.

 

[Fobok]

That's the problem. It's relevant for someone to say why they disliked what they've seen or played in 4e, as this is the 4e forums, and 4e has yet to come out.

It's not that relevant for someone to say why they disliked the already established system.

But, that's the question that many 4e-haters have been asking those of us who like 4e since last August. Why not just stick with what you have? The OP answers this quite clearly.

Though you could be right and this would fit general forums better. I imagine it'd draw even more hostility there, though.

 

[Propheous_D]

No matter what game, no matter what system, you are only ever as free as you let yourself be. If 4e helps some people who can't unleash themselves otherwise feel more free, that's great.

Though I think the books have about the same amount of pages, so the weight of the rules isn't going to change much.

Agreeable with the fact that no matter what system you use you are only as free as you need to be. I ran convention games with only 1 page of notes and winged the rest. I agree with all most all of what you say in regards to 3.x. Seeing as we both have a very similar approch to the rpg. I just feel that the aproach we take is not really anything close to raw. I agree with the OP's complaints about 3.x mostly cause I see them not because they effect me.

Though I have to say that while it was nice to have 3.x there as a net I see it as a smaller net then what 4e presents. Given that a simple fact is that the monster/npc rules are more complicated in 3 I see 4 as a step up especially for people like us who like to fly game.

I look at the customization options that are hinted at as a possible formulae I can just easily use to on the fly adjust what I need to adjust and not feel so much like I am freeforming a formal process. I can be a bit anal about keeping to the rules even when I freeform. This is were I think 4 makes a solid evolution for my game style.

 

[Propheous_D]

Yes, but I'm entirely disagreeing with the premise that 3e encourages clobberfests. That has not been my experience across several lengthy campaigns.

This really comes down to the player and the DM. Experienced DM's/Player's can steer away from that. However when you first pick up 3E as a new gamer it can lead you into that full attack mentality.

I think that its hard to judge a system as an experienced gamer. We really have to step back and see it for the first time and what would you do if you had never played pnp RPGs and DnD specifically before. This is the lowest common denominator and with 3E it was a large chunk of the new audience.

I think that the most important thing to a system is how it plays on the first experience. 3E for that fact was light years a head of 2E. Not having to reverse math the numbers and wrap ones head around the math made for a much easier game to understand. All a new person needed to know was D20 + # vs #. However, from a design DMing stand point there was ALOT that the DM needed to know if he wanted to create and run a campaign. As time went on this became even more problematic with brutal class combination and silly people who like bags of rats and cleave.

I don't think all those problems will go away in 4 but they look a little more manageble in the fact that you don't have multiple PrC's to deal with. Though I can see some broken combo's coming out of the multiclassing system.

 

[Klaus]

This really comes down to the player and the DM. Experienced DM's/Player's can steer away from that. However when you first pick up 3E as a new gamer it can lead you into that full attack mentality.

I think that its hard to judge a system as an experienced gamer. We really have to step back and see it for the first time and what would you do if you had never played pnp RPGs and DnD specifically before. This is the lowest common denominator and with 3E it was a large chunk of the new audience.

I think that the most important thing to a system is how it plays on the first experience. 3E for that fact was light years a head of 2E. Not having to reverse math the numbers and wrap ones head around the math made for a much easier game to understand. All a new person needed to know was D20 + # vs #. However, from a design DMing stand point there was ALOT that the DM needed to know if he wanted to create and run a campaign. As time went on this became even more problematic with brutal class combination and silly people who like bags of rats and cleave.

I don't think all those problems will go away in 4 but they look a little more manageble in the fact that you don't have multiple PrC's to deal with. Though I can see some broken combo's coming out of the multiclassing system.

Not in my experience. I gamed with several new players, and their first thoughts in combat are always to try dynamic things, like pulling a stall on top of opponents, or ripping a curtain on foes.

IME, the more detail you add to the battlefield, the more dynamic the fight becomes. If you put the combatants in a 20x20 ft. empty room, "full attack fests" are inevitable.