Assassin, Battlemind, and Vampire

[SpydersWebbing]

So I'm currently working on some "fixes" for 4th edition for my blog, and the classes in the title are my thought experiments.

Assassin: Spike damage isn't good enough.
Battlemind: Desperately needs Constitution for MBA's and the Mind Spike isn't as effective as it looks.
Vampire: Just... sucks. Yeah, odd joke, I know.

Thoughts?

 

[Neonchameleon]

From what I can tell, the Battlemind is fine once it gets Lightning Rush (or the other good L7 encounter power) and has all the unbalance problems of any other psi class at paragon/epic. Other than that, a MBA would really help. But it's a special case with unbalanced powers.

Assassin... Which one? The Executioner is really a subtype of rogue. And the oAsassin needs serious work, in part due to back-loaded damage. Could a modifier equal to half the number of shrouds squared per tier be added to the damage usefully? Which really incentivises those 4 shroud attacks...

 

[SpydersWebbing]

From what I can tell, the Battlemind is fine once it gets Lightning Rush (or the other good L7 encounter power) and has all the unbalance problems of any other psi class at paragon/epic. Other than that, a MBA would really help. But it's a special case with unbalanced powers.

Assassin... Which one? The Executioner is really a subtype of rogue. And the oAsassin needs serious work, in part due to back-loaded damage. Could a modifier equal to half the number of shrouds squared per tier be added to the damage usefully? Which really incentivises those 4 shroud attacks...

Hhhm.... why not make Lightning Rush part of the Class? I know the power, and you're right, it's absolutely necessary to the class.

What're the inbalance problems of a psionic class at paragon/epic?

oAssassin: I was planning to make those d6s turn to d10's if you have all four Shrouds. That can be a pretty substantial spike. Might bump it up to d12's, but not sure yet.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hhhm.... why not make Lightning Rush part of the Class? I know the power, and you're right, it's absolutely necessary to the class.

That might well work - or even be overpowered unless you made it encounter.

What're the inbalance problems of a psionic class at paragon/epic?

Treating the stronger Augment 2 heroic tier powers as de facto At Will powers. Not helped by the Psion having a L1 power that inflicts a stat modifier penalty to to hit rolls, that's been scaling.

oAssassin: I was planning to make those d6s turn to d10's if you have all four Shrouds. That can be a pretty substantial spike. Might bump it up to d12's, but not sure yet.

Hmm... 1d4, 2d6 , 3d8, 4d10? Or even 1d6, 2d8, 3d10, 4d12? I think the first probably. How long do you leave it because losing the kill hurts?

 

[SpydersWebbing]

s

That might well work - or even be overpowered unless you made it encounter.

Or make a similar power that only targets marked enemies without any of the augments and giving up your standard action. Also let it be an Opportunity Action. Give the power this augment instead:
Augment 2: 2[w]+Constitution damage.

Still makes Lightning Rush relevant, but not absolutely necessary. It also goes with the whole "constantly warping reality" shtick that makes Battleminds what they are. I think.

Treating the stronger Augment 2 heroic tier powers as de facto At Will powers. Not helped by the Psion having a L1 power that inflicts a stat modifier penalty to to hit rolls, that's been scaling.

So houserule that at 11th level all Augment 2's become Augment 4's. At level 21 all Augment 1's become Augment 2's, and all Augment 4's (including the previous Augment 2's from Heroic tier) become Augment 6's. The scaling would force switching out, in theory...

Hmm... 1d4, 2d6 , 3d8, 4d10? Or even 1d6, 2d8, 3d10, 4d12? I think the first probably. How long do you leave it because losing the kill hurts?

No, keep it at d6's until the 4th shroud, where it turns to d10's. You want these people to wait.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

s
So houserule that at 11th level all Augment 2's become Augment 4's. At level 21 all Augment 1's become Augment 2's, and all Augment 4's (including the previous Augment 2's from Heroic tier) become Augment 6's. The scaling would force switching out, in theory...

Certainly they wouldn't switch out, because then nobody would play the classes. At least, not without further houserules addressing the scaling of the damage and effects.

Brad

 

[SpydersWebbing]

Certainly they wouldn't switch out, because then nobody would play the classes. At least, not without further houserules addressing the scaling of the damage and effects.

Brad

Could you explain this a little more?

 

[Neverfate]

So I'm currently working on some "fixes" for 4th edition for my blog, and the classes in the title are my thought experiments.

Assassin: Spike damage isn't good enough.
Battlemind: Desperately needs Constitution for MBA's and the Mind Spike isn't as effective as it looks.
Vampire: Just... sucks. Yeah, odd joke, I know.

Thoughts?

Assassin- The only thing they really have is spike damage. They have no consistency. They have 1d6 per round (similar to Warlocks) but with no way to Shroud multiple target, or gain bonuses if that shroud target dies. They also have no real control like Warlocks or off-turn attacks like Rangers.

Battlemind- Mind Spike isn't the greatest defender mark, but it functions well enough if you know how to use it (a lot of players don't) and doesn't need to be hacked. However, why they didn't start with a feature, let alone get a feat, to use Con for attack/damage of melee basic attacks is beyond me. They could really use that.

Vampire- They're only effective strikers with extreme optimization, so they're entirely party/campaign dependent. Seeing as they have almost nothing to draw on from previous classes (like a Hexblade that is also dual-stat dependent) they're really left out in the cold. If you're looking to up their striker potential, you could make a feat that augments their damage output (namely a bonus to their +Cha mechanic), which might help them. Assassin recently got bandaid feat fixes this year, which while not perfect, made it a more bearable class (in terms of damage) so that could work for Vampires too.

 

[Shadus]

As someone who plays an OAssassin, I think I can help with identifying the problems.

Now I love my Assassin. They have fun mid-ranged powers, and can easily stick to there target, either teleporting with-in reach or blasting him form mid-range and also has really nifty encounter powers (Which have been helpful in and out of combat.). The biggest problem with the assassin is how it's meant to be played doesn't happen very often. Preplanned attacks are what make the assassin. While most classes can charge right in and mess stuff up, the assassin is best if he waits for combat, building up assassin shrouds on the biggest target without him knowing, and then in one solid movement strike. However, this only works to the assassins benefit, and most other classes will just want to jump right into combat. Also there is the times when the enemy already knows you are there before or as soon as you find them, or you are unable to get into a position where you have the advantage.
Also, a better damage boost per tier would help.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Could you explain this a little more?

Certainly! (Sorry for delay, was going out)

It denies them power usage.

Why? Because the Power Point scaling for the powers is meant to be that, at the full power point usage (that it includes a half-power usage is pretty much gravy), that it equals a non-PPUP classe's encounter power. Thus at 1, 3, and 7, they get 2 PP each, for a total of 6 PP. So, a 10th-level PPUP can use three full-bore powers at 2 PP each for the equivalent of 3 encounter powers, which the non-PPUP class can.

So, then, doubling the cost to 4, 8, etc, directly cuts their power usage in half. A level 11 PPUP is only guaranteed 6 PP (since they don't HAVE to take a paragon path that grants PP), so making their highest augment 4 points instead of two means they can use precisely one full-scale power an encounter, and then one half-scale power, and then they're dry.

Adding this to the general crappiness that is the PPUP at epic (because they don't get a 2[W] or extra dice), and that would, again, without making more changes, make the classes punitively unplayable.

Brad