Dire Bare
Legend
It's been a while since I've seen any of the classic Bond films, but the two newer films with Daniel Craig aren't like this at all. Bond is mistrusted by his superiors because too many people seem to die whenever he's involved!
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Assassins as a Heroic Archetype?
- Thread starter Dragonhelm
- Start date
It's been a while since I've seen any of the classic Bond films, but the two newer films with Daniel Craig aren't like this at all. Bond is mistrusted by his superiors because too many people seem to die whenever he's involved!
Rel
Liquid Awesome
Interesting thread.
I haven't really examined the new Assassin class for 4e but I've certainly never had a problem with an assassin-type character as a concept for one of my games. I think the reason is because the historically typical party of D&D characters are not exactly morally superior to the assassin in concept.
I mean back in the day the adventure was frequently presented as, "Over in those caves live some orcs. They probably have some treasure. Go kill them and take their treasure." In that context an Assassin, who might be able to sneak past nearly everybody in the place, kill only the guards to the "treasure room" and sneak back out with the loot, is morally superior to the typical band of PC's who kill every monster in the joint before waltzing back to town to spend the money (historically on ale and whores, right?).
But let's add a slightly more heroic context. Say the King says, "Those orcs over there have been killing the farmers in the valley. They must be stopped!" Now we're protecting (presumably) innocent lives so it's heroic, right? But again let's say the assassin sneaks in, kills the Orc Chief and leaves a note pinned to his chest that says:
To whom it may concern,
I urge whoever takes leadership of the tribe to abandon the policy of attacking the farmers in the valley. Failure to comply with this request will be grounds for their removal as well.
Have a very pleasant rest of your day.
Best regards,
The King's Assassin.
Should that be considered more morally repugnant than the party of adventurers killing every orc in the caves? And if the party of adventurers are being paid to "dispose of the orcish threat" then are they any less assassins than the more surgical instrument of the actual "Assassin"?
I don't mean this to sound like if you don't want Assassins in your game that you're "doing it wrong". I only contend that most of the RPG playing I've ever done has fallen pretty firmly in the morally grey area. In the context of "normal adventuring" the Assassin seems at no moral disadvantage to most normal parties of PC's and may even be somewhat superior.
All of that said, I do think that an Assassin is unquestionably evil if he or she opts to put all moral consideration aside. If offered a contract to go stab those nuns in the face then it's probably best if the PC declines, unless of course you are running the sort of campaign where nun face-stabbing is expected of the PC's.
At the very least don't brag about it in front of the Paladin.
I haven't really examined the new Assassin class for 4e but I've certainly never had a problem with an assassin-type character as a concept for one of my games. I think the reason is because the historically typical party of D&D characters are not exactly morally superior to the assassin in concept.
I mean back in the day the adventure was frequently presented as, "Over in those caves live some orcs. They probably have some treasure. Go kill them and take their treasure." In that context an Assassin, who might be able to sneak past nearly everybody in the place, kill only the guards to the "treasure room" and sneak back out with the loot, is morally superior to the typical band of PC's who kill every monster in the joint before waltzing back to town to spend the money (historically on ale and whores, right?).
But let's add a slightly more heroic context. Say the King says, "Those orcs over there have been killing the farmers in the valley. They must be stopped!" Now we're protecting (presumably) innocent lives so it's heroic, right? But again let's say the assassin sneaks in, kills the Orc Chief and leaves a note pinned to his chest that says:
To whom it may concern,
I urge whoever takes leadership of the tribe to abandon the policy of attacking the farmers in the valley. Failure to comply with this request will be grounds for their removal as well.
Have a very pleasant rest of your day.
Best regards,
The King's Assassin.
Should that be considered more morally repugnant than the party of adventurers killing every orc in the caves? And if the party of adventurers are being paid to "dispose of the orcish threat" then are they any less assassins than the more surgical instrument of the actual "Assassin"?
I don't mean this to sound like if you don't want Assassins in your game that you're "doing it wrong". I only contend that most of the RPG playing I've ever done has fallen pretty firmly in the morally grey area. In the context of "normal adventuring" the Assassin seems at no moral disadvantage to most normal parties of PC's and may even be somewhat superior.
All of that said, I do think that an Assassin is unquestionably evil if he or she opts to put all moral consideration aside. If offered a contract to go stab those nuns in the face then it's probably best if the PC declines, unless of course you are running the sort of campaign where nun face-stabbing is expected of the PC's.
At the very least don't brag about it in front of the Paladin.
There is a story from The Compleat Traveller in Black by John Brunner in which an Assassin opines that he is the greatest ever and nobody knows it...he just wants the credit and respect he feels he's earned.
The protagonist, who "has many names but only one nature" and who bears a staff of curdled light, says:
"As you wish, so be it."
and the following morning, the assassin's body lies cooling on a dunghill; his crimes discovered, credit properly given him; and execution as the law prescribes performed.
Thunderfoot
Hero
OOPS - what's the old saying? Be careful what you wish for......
Chaoszero
First Post
Wow.
When I first saw this thread I said, "Oh, they will definitely mention these guys. But I did not see any mention (though I did skim a few posts).
So I make honorable mention of what I would deem as Heroic Assassins:
- Richard B. Riddick (of the Riddick series)
- Violet Song jat Shariff (of Ultra Violet)
- Aeon Flux (of Aeon Flux)
- Vassili Zaitsev (of Enemy at the Gates (based on the RL Vasily Zaytsev))
- Selene (of the Underworld series)
- V (of V for Vendetta)
- Slevin Kelevra (of Luck Number Slevin)
- Miho (of Sin City)
- Jimmy "The Tulip" Tudeski (of The Whole Nine Yards)
These are just off the top of my head. If I went to go look at my movie collection, I bet I'd remember more.
Oh and Kudos to the ones who mentioned The Professional and the Stallone Assassins movie.
When I first saw this thread I said, "Oh, they will definitely mention these guys. But I did not see any mention (though I did skim a few posts).
So I make honorable mention of what I would deem as Heroic Assassins:
- Richard B. Riddick (of the Riddick series)
- Violet Song jat Shariff (of Ultra Violet)
- Aeon Flux (of Aeon Flux)
- Vassili Zaitsev (of Enemy at the Gates (based on the RL Vasily Zaytsev))
- Selene (of the Underworld series)
- V (of V for Vendetta)
- Slevin Kelevra (of Luck Number Slevin)
- Miho (of Sin City)
- Jimmy "The Tulip" Tudeski (of The Whole Nine Yards)
These are just off the top of my head. If I went to go look at my movie collection, I bet I'd remember more.
Oh and Kudos to the ones who mentioned The Professional and the Stallone Assassins movie.
Dire Bare
Legend
Well, history, morality, and literary archetypes aside . . .
The assassin in D&D is simply a dark hero. Not necessarily an evil hero, just a dark one.
Here is my first 4e assassin's hook (I have yet to roll him up):
"I was trained by bad people to be a killer of men for dark purposes, but now I choose my own path, and I turn the tools of darkness back upon those who would hurt the innocent!"
Done! Simple enough for me! I should even be able to get along with the paladin . . .
The assassin in D&D is simply a dark hero. Not necessarily an evil hero, just a dark one.
Here is my first 4e assassin's hook (I have yet to roll him up):
"I was trained by bad people to be a killer of men for dark purposes, but now I choose my own path, and I turn the tools of darkness back upon those who would hurt the innocent!"
Done! Simple enough for me! I should even be able to get along with the paladin . . .
Dice4Hire
First Post
Yes, many parties are morally ambiguous, but an asassin is a lot mroe so. But the main question is what kind of assassin. If they kill for their own monetary gain then they are not heroic. If they kill for a cuase they can be. If they kill to make the world a better place, then they probably are.
But for many people heroic is facing enemies in the proper way, and not using any means necessary, and that is the rub for me. I want my players to be heroic, I like to run heroic games. And a lone assassin who sneaks in and out of places jsut is not.
Also D&D is ever a party game, and assassins are not party people. Yes, they can play as part of a party, but then they are not being true assassins. They could be any of a number of other calsses just as well.
I have not seen the new assassin in 4E (see my sig) and probably would not object to someone playing one (assuming I thought he was balanced) if I had the rules for him, but they would need to fit in the party.
So a lone killer would not make the grade.
But for many people heroic is facing enemies in the proper way, and not using any means necessary, and that is the rub for me. I want my players to be heroic, I like to run heroic games. And a lone assassin who sneaks in and out of places jsut is not.
Also D&D is ever a party game, and assassins are not party people. Yes, they can play as part of a party, but then they are not being true assassins. They could be any of a number of other calsses just as well.
I have not seen the new assassin in 4E (see my sig) and probably would not object to someone playing one (assuming I thought he was balanced) if I had the rules for him, but they would need to fit in the party.
So a lone killer would not make the grade.
While that is a good point, history has shown that assassins can be quite sociable and patient in order to get close to their objective. (Assassin speak for "target.") A difficult objective may require many years worth of waiting to get into position to complete their mission. In other cases, they may be placed in a position "just in case" their patron wants that objective resolved.
In D&D, an assassin may view an adventuring life as a way to hone skills or as a path to completing their mission. They may even be just a convenient distraction from his real mission as they raise a ruckus killing their way through the dungeon, drawing forces away from the real objective.
FWIW, favorite euphemism for an assassin's kill? Terry Pratchett's "inhume."
My father used to play an assassin-type character in one of the pre- Wizards editions of D&D. He wasn't particularly nice, to my understanding, was kinda mysterious(he never explained to anyone how he got his skills, except it was a military background), and deadly efficient. However, his loyalty was pretty much never in question because he bailed the group out of jams time and time again when he had every opportunity to just ditch them and get away clean.
Sounds kinda heroic to me.
Sounds kinda heroic to me.
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