Assigning 2 attributes to saves and initiative

[Protagonist]

Hello EnWorld!

I'm in the process of homebrewing my own d&d-based system and at the moment I am obsessed with keying initiative checks (and maybe saving throws) to two attributes. 4E already allows to use either Dex or Int for the Reflex defense and this got me thinking.

The act of avoiding something in time (or acting first in combat) is of course related to purely physical dexterity, but also has mental components. One of them being awareness of the situation and then adjucating which action would be wise to choose. In d&d terms this looks like Dex + Wis to me, but seing as 4E as chosen to use Int I'm wondering what to use? To be honest, the d&d destinction between wisdom and intelligence has alway been a bit confusion to me.

I will probably use (Dex+Int)/2 für initiative and as reflex defense, because I plan on combining will and fort defenses into a single resilience stat [ (Con+Wis)/2 ].
I think that would simplify things and can easily be justfied seeing as how overcoming fatigue, disease and poison can be argued to have a willpower component and for magical effects it could easily be "handwaved" into making sense (i.e. compulsion effects need to overcome the will first, but even then the body might still be diffictule to control etc.)

Having the Non-AC-Defenses as well as initiative represented by both a physical and a mental stat also seems like something that would be good for class balance.

So, I could really need your help deciding

a) which mental stat I should pair with dexterity
b) whether I am alone thinking that will and fort could be believably folded into one defense
c) if the average of phy.stat+ment.stat is a better design choice than always using the higher one
d) if the idea of using 2 attributes (be it average, combined value or the highest) for this is attrative at all?

 

[Atlatl Jones]

a) which mental stat I should pair with dexterity

Either Wis or Int would be fine. Wis would make slightly more sense to me than Int, but Int does seem to be the "mental quickness" stat in 4e.

b) whether I am alone thinking that will and fort could be believably folded into one defense
You're probably alone in thinking that, yes. What will that houserule actually achieve, aside from making characters slightly more monotonous? Are you just rules-fiddling for the sake of rules-fiddling?

c) if the average of phy.stat+ment.stat is a better design choice than always using the higher one
"Better" is awfully subjective. Either can be justified in-game. It makes the math more complex, but only slightly. The biggest change is that it'll make defenses lower than they are in default 4e D&D, so monsters will be hitting the PCs more often.

d) if the idea of using 2 attributes (be it average, combined value or the highest) for this is attrative at all?
Personally, I don't see the point. Again, what are you actually trying to achieve with your houserule?

 

[Garthanos]

there are usually more than one way to accomplish things in the real world
playing to ones strengths is the winners technique ... The heros are us getting
to play winners and its very much the 4e style if you absorb it, it makes real sense.

I talk a little more about the idea associated with this house rule.
Musings of a 4e D&D simulatio...

Here is a house rule rewards raising that other attribute
Under most circumstances let people chose the attribute
but special circumstances... say they cant see or something
forces them to use the other attribute.

 

[Starfox]

Using the average of two stats for something is generally a bad idea. It encourages blandness, and gives very little spread in the ability. Many games back in the 80s used to do this; they usually ended up too complex and too muddled.

 

[Sadrik]

Hello EnWorld!

I'm in the process of homebrewing my own d&d-based system and at the moment I am obsessed with keying initiative checks (and maybe saving throws) to two attributes. 4E already allows to use either Dex or Int for the Reflex defense and this got me thinking.

The act of avoiding something in time (or acting first in combat) is of course related to purely physical dexterity, but also has mental components. One of them being awareness of the situation and then adjucating which action would be wise to choose. In d&d terms this looks like Dex + Wis to me, but seing as 4E as chosen to use Int I'm wondering what to use? To be honest, the d&d destinction between wisdom and intelligence has alway been a bit confusion to me.

I will probably use (Dex+Int)/2 für initiative and as reflex defense, because I plan on combining will and fort defenses into a single resilience stat [ (Con+Wis)/2 ].
I think that would simplify things and can easily be justfied seeing as how overcoming fatigue, disease and poison can be argued to have a willpower component and for magical effects it could easily be "handwaved" into making sense (i.e. compulsion effects need to overcome the will first, but even then the body might still be diffictule to control etc.)

Having the Non-AC-Defenses as well as initiative represented by both a physical and a mental stat also seems like something that would be good for class balance.

So, I could really need your help deciding

a) which mental stat I should pair with dexterity
b) whether I am alone thinking that will and fort could be believably folded into one defense
c) if the average of phy.stat+ment.stat is a better design choice than always using the higher one
d) if the idea of using 2 attributes (be it average, combined value or the highest) for this is attrative at all?

The current white wolf system takes the lowest of two stats to form figured stats. D&D does the opposite. I rather like that characters weak links are being exploited it makes for more well rounded characters. However 4e math is in such a way that it requires you to maximize your stats or you are sub-optimal.

I have two proposals for you:
1. Let each player select the stat that they want to use for your three defenses.
Example: suppose a player wanted to play a smart brutal rogue. They new that they would not have a very good Wisdom or Charisma, their best stat would be in DEX, second in STR and third best would be in INT. The Player could decide that he wants his DEX to be: REF and his STR to be: FORT and finally decides that his WILL will be based on his INT.
2. Let each class dictate where their three defense stats are coming from.
Example: a paladin might be assigned STR for Fort, WIS for REF and CHA for WILL. Basically take the three stats for the class and assign them to the three defenses.

The three defenses packages are:
FORT/HP/Surges
REF/AC/(Initiative?)
WILL

 

[Garthanos]

The current white wolf system takes the lowest of two stats to form figured stats. D&D does the opposite. I rather like that characters weak links are being exploited it makes for more well rounded characters.

I rather like ... the idea that weak links get exploited too... but only when something has gone wrong, ie when you are forced to operate in an abnormal way. It doesn't go as far at encouraging well rounded characters (which is something I do like too), but it is better connected to 4e.

Sadriks idea is still connected to 4e though, and avoids the blandness of averaging everything to death. It is a very broad change that some might not like.