Assumed PC power level

[Savage Wombat]

I'm looking for some hard numbers, if they exist.

Does anyone have a chart showing how powerful the system assumes a PC is at any given level?

For example, it might say that a 5th level PC is assumed (for the system math) to have an AC between 18 and 25, and a saving throw bonus of +2 to +8.

I'm trying to assess my existing party and determine if they really have poor ACs (etc.) for their level, or if they should just get used to being hit a lot.

 

[Ramaster]

Well, as you start to level up, it gets increasingly harder to have a meaningful AC, so yeah, you get hit more often on higher levels.

4e had a table (on the Dark Sun book, if I recall correctly) that said which bonuses should the characters get from magic items at each level, but that's about it... On Pathfinder you have to make do with the Wealth by Level tables... that's not much help, though.

In my experience, the only way to test the characters stats is to send monsters at them and see how they handle it. Increase the CR progressively until you get a hang of it, and don't be afraid to modify the monsters stats/make new monsters to adjust the challenge to the typ of characters your players have made.

I do that a lot. Generally, I prefer that the monsters hit less often than they usually do and that the PCs miss more than they would usually do (so up goes the monster's AC and down their to-hit). Not everyone "feels" the combat the same way!

And as always, play what you like!

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm looking for some hard numbers, if they exist.

Does anyone have a chart showing how powerful the system assumes a PC is at any given level?

For example, it might say that a 5th level PC is assumed (for the system math) to have an AC between 18 and 25, and a saving throw bonus of +2 to +8.

I'm trying to assess my existing party and determine if they really have poor ACs (etc.) for their level, or if they should just get used to being hit a lot.

I know there is no specific chart that determines such limitations, and really Pathfinder has enough options, that you cannot place hard-lined limitations in comparing all classes at a specific level.

With varying Dex bonuses based on one's stat, armor limitations based on class, armor bonuses based on class (monk adding Wis bonus for example), however much wealth they have attained and able to purchase enhanced armors - which may differ between GM to GM... I don't think a range of AC could be easily identified at any class level, not consistently so that a chart could even be conceived.

 

[Adimus]

Not sure about the stats and such, since as stated above they can vary widely depending on class and the priorities which players place on certain scores.
I don't guess these are really hard numbers, but as magical equipment goes I've always used the caster level requirements for the equipment listed as a guideline for about when the characters should start having access to them. It stands to reason that these are the levels at which paizo definitely thinks that it is okay to have these items since any item-creating character could make them. That's not to say they couldn't find something more powerful as a prize or story-related item, or that everyone is supposed to have one at that level, but on average. There does seem-to me at least- to be some sort of rationale to the structure of things like DR and other defenses that 'recommends' a certain power level to equipment, and those can be useful guides too.

 

[milo]

There is the monster statistics chart on page 291 of the Beastiary, that is the closest thing that I know of to what you are looking for. You could reverse engineer the chart to get using the average of 10.5 on a D20. Just looking at CR 5 AC 18, High Attack 10, low attack 7, Primary ability DC 15, good save 8, bad save 4. So someone who designed their character for melee DPS should have at least a +8 to attack if he wants to hit more than 50% of the time. Someone who built himself as a tank should be at a minimum AC of 20-21.
But that being said it will be difficult to do this for everyone every level, if you just throw the right CR at them see how they do and adjust accordingly.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'm looking for some hard numbers, if they exist.

This is probably going to sound flippant, but I'll ask anyway: why are you asking this question here?

What I mean is, PF is one of the few big rpgs where the writers themselves just might answer your question directly, if you ask it on their forums.

As an aside, yes I have definite opinions on the matter, but this is one of the things about 3.x that drives me crazy. Clearly the writers intend some sort of standard numbers, but nobody ever talks about them. DMs all too often think that numbers aren't important, so kudos for being one of the few!

 

[MythMage]

Tequila Sunrise has a point, and it would be smart to ask on the Paizo forums.

If that doesn't work out, consider the monster guidelines from the Bestiary: Monster Creation

These show what the minimums for monsters of that CR are. Interestingly, a PC's CR is pretty similar to his/her character level. This chart isn't a bad place to start for such numbers. To fine-tune it for this purpose, I would say that...

Good-BAB characters should generally have at least 3-4 points higher than the minimum on attack. Similarly, ability-oriented characters should have maximum DCs 1-2 points higher than on the table.

It's perfectly fine for poor saves to be as little as two-thirds that on the table (even lower for Reflex) for everyone (monsters can't afford to drop below this point because they often go solo and getting impaired for even a turn or two can end the fight, but that's not big a deal for parties of PCs).

For similar reasons, hp don't need to be that high. d10-HD characters need something like 3/4 that, d8-HD characters need something like 1/2 that, and d6-HD characters need something like 1/4 that. However, AC should be a bit higher for the party as a whole, averaging a few points higher than the minimums on the table.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Tequila Sunrise has a point, and it would be smart to ask on the Paizo forums.

I actually went over and asked myself, out of sheer curiousity.

And naturally, the first suggestion was the bestiary chart. I took a look, but I don't think it clarifies much of anything. For example, even fightery-types are hard-pressed to keep up with the monster AC progression. But PCs with medium BABs? Forget it, even with regular magic weapon upgrades!

I'm gonna bump the paizo thread tomorrow, in the hopes that someone on the paizo team takes notice.

 

[MythMage]

For example, even fightery-types are hard-pressed to keep up with the monster AC progression. But PCs with medium BABs? Forget it, even with regular magic weapon upgrades!

I don't think it should be difficult to hit those numbers if you try to either get a good ability score or reasonably high-modifier magic weapon in the mix. What sort of builds have you been trying?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't think it should be difficult to hit those numbers if you try to either get a good ability score or reasonably high-modifier magic weapon in the mix. What sort of builds have you been trying?

You're right; with stat boosts and magical weapons included, 3/4 BAB types can keep up. Don't know why I forgot about stat boosters when I wrote the post you quoted.

If anyone is interested, here is this thread's sister at Paizo, in which a couple of hysterical gamers predictably complain about the dangers of too much information. I suspect that, as usual, they're why nobody on the Paizo team deigned to comment on the subject.

Here is the follow-up thread, GFASWL, in which I and others go ahead and make some assumptions anyway. (Gamers For the Advancement of Stats With Level. See OP for pronunciation.)

And here is the final draft of the resulting Loot Lite house rule variants.