At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

Sadrik

First Post
I think I'm still confused by what, specifically, you're going after here.

I'm going to try and reiterate this.
If at-wills are removed several things happen.
--> I think we touched on all of the effects. Some are very beneficial and there are a couple of stumbles. In my opinion there are more benefits than stumbles.
So here is a list:
1. Basic attacks become the vanilla attack as opposed to at-wills.
2. Different weapons can be used without becoming sub-par options to a classes at-will powers.
3. STR and DEX become more important in character creation.
4. Basic attacks are less tactical but speed up real time grind.

I think that is it.

Making such a bold move as removing at-will attacks, would require some form of gimme for the players. I think that a good trade off would be taking those two at-wills that PCs get at first level and giving them two bonus encounter powers (so 3 at 1st level).

By RAW, in a 12 round combat you have 1 encounter and 11 vanilla at-wills and possibly a daily (of course the number of at-wills goes down as you level up). If you have 3 1st level encounter powers, you now only make 9 vanilla basic attacks and have 3 encounter and 1 daily. Again, this may speed up real time grind.

I suppose to get your head around this second part you have to agree with the premises that at-wills cut down options.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Rechan

Adventurer
My 6th lvl eladrin wizard begs to differ with you. He is currently +13 attack and 1d8+11 damage with his +2 adamantine longsword. :)
Perhaps I should rephrase.

The default assumption is that they don't. They certainly don't have to. So I don't get the initial point, that "What would they do in this system".
 

Cadfan

First Post
I think I'm still confused by what, specifically, you're going after here. Is it specifically wizardly and clerical at-wills that are the problem? What kinds of character archetypes and design innovations would be encouraged by removing at-wills, adding another encounter power, and making everyone basic attack all the time? How would the elimination of at-wills enhance character archetypes more than making new at-wills?
He wants spellcasters to be able to nomagically use weapons, and to fight in a sort of dual-style, sometimes with nonmagical (martial) ability, and sometimes with spells. More at wills, at least, more at wills designed under the same design paradigm as the present ones, won't do this. They will instead add ways to for spellcasters to magically use weapons. Additionally, he wants the thematic feel of that nonmagical use being lesser than the spellcaster's magical abilities, in order to make the magical abilities feel more powerful by contrast.

4e doesn't do this well. It offers a host of ways for, for example, a wizard to learn to use a sword. But all of them involve magically using the sword, except for multiclassing, which fails to give him the thematic feel he wants of martial combat being the basic stuff.

His theory is that by eliminating at wills you will force characters to use basic, nonmagical attacks. Because players won't want to do this, and because basic attacks are weak, this will give the feel that he wants. And since 4e forces you to use a certain amount of at wills per fight, it will make it worthwhile to invest a bit in improving them even if you are a spellcaster archetype.

You know the basic feel of a character who can always attack with scorching burst, but sometimes attacks with burning hands or a flaming sphere? He wants the same feel, except that the character can always attack with his muscles, and occasionally uses scorching burst, burning hands, or flaming sphere. A hypothetical new wizard at will that allows you to attack with your sword using your Intelligence to hit and dealing flame damage would totally fail to satisfy him.

I don't think that 4e does what he wants very well, at least, not without destroying things that I like. So when he talks about this sort of stuff I won't tell him that there's ways he can accomplish it.

But on the other matters, like whether basic melee attacks would somehow be less boring than reaping strike, I think he's way out in left field. Ditto with whether you can or can't create certain archetypes in 4e- you almost always can, or, a way to do it is almost always easily available. Ditto whether its viable in 4e to go dual attack stat. It is. An elf cleric archer, the example he gave, is trivially easy to create, and the dual stat issue isn't remotely close to a problem.
 

Perhaps I should rephrase.

The default assumption is that they don't. They certainly don't have to. So I don't get the initial point, that "What would they do in this system".

Ok I should rephrase...I enjoy the at wills as is...and both character examples were to show why...those characters have at will attacks without weapons, something that would be lost in this proposed 'fix'



I also have a counter proposal... give everyone 3 encounters and 1 at will...that way if you don't want to have a weapon cloud of daggers or Magic missle...or scorching burst are still options
 

The Human Target

Adventurer
I pretty much completely agree with Obryn.

I'm in no rush to return to the days of "my wizard is out of spells, guess I'll start making crappy crossbow attacks."

Removing the at-wills gimps anyone who doesn't already use Dex or Str for attacks. And I don't see how removing them and reworking the entire game is the best choice.

1. Basic attacks become the vanilla attack as opposed to at-wills.

Why is this a good thing? At-Wills allow players to actually do what their class is supposed to do. Who builds a warlock in order to make dagger attacks?

2. Different weapons can be used without becoming sub-par options to a classes at-will powers.

This is an argument that is true for encounter powers. But name an at-will that actually is affected by weapon selection? Unless you mean you want your cleric to be a master archer as well, but thats just not how the game is designed. As other people have said, make a ranger that eventually multiclasses into cleric. These are just the kind of things that happen in a classed leveled game system. You can't easily get too far out of your role.

3. STR and DEX become more important in character creation.

Why is this a good thing? They're already very important to a lot of classes. I see them being made dump stats no more or less than any stat outside of CHA. Should we ditch at-wills and make it so that all basic attacks use Charisma instead of DEX or STR so more people choose it at creation?

4. Basic attacks are less tactical but speed up real time grind.

Do at-wills really slow the game down at all past the first session? At-wills are designed to be easy to use, and super useful.


Also, you might want to check out page 66 of the DMG "Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities." DMs can rule that certain attacks do more or less damage against certain objects. Magic Missiles are basically magical force punches, so its well within the DMs preview to say that no matter how many you cast you can never knock down a stone wall. The same way you can say no matter how many Twin Strikes a Ranger makes an an iron door, the arrows will never wear it down.
 
Last edited:

Cadfan

First Post
Slightly off topic, but if anyone could direct me to a quick description of the myths and themes of Corellan, I'll work on my multiclass path.

I might do this for a couple of deities. Can anyone think of any other popular deities who ought to have worshippers with abilities that don't quite work under the present system? All I've got so far are archers and Corellan.
 

Mallus

Legend
If at-wills are removed several things happen.
The main thing that happens is you break one of 4e's design principles: that each class has combat ability related to it's shtick ie, mages fight with magic, clerics fight with faith, paladins fight with charm, and so on.

If you want a character that primarily uses a weapon, start with a martial character, then multiclass (and pick up the Ritual Caster or Alchemist Feat). Easy-peasy!

I think the problem is you're trying to recreate specific 3e character builds using 4e, and that way lies disappointment. As people have already illustrated, it's not hard to take a 3e character concept and build it in 4e. But if you're looking for an exact duplicate of a mechanical build, it's not going to work.

Not unless you gut 4e's mechanics like you're suggesting.
 
Last edited:

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Perhaps I should rephrase.

The default assumption is that they don't. They certainly don't have to. So I don't get the initial point, that "What would they do in this system".

Oh, I agree with you. Just because I chose to create a wizard who is more effective with a sword than some of his at will spells (at the cost of 3 feats and two magic items he wouldn't normally use) doesn't mean I think all wizards should be forced into being gimped fighters after the first few rounds of combat.

I actually think it sounds like a horrible idea, and makes non-martial characters even less effective than they are now.
 


Cadfan

First Post
Alright, again. All this talk about needing ways to create archer clerics of Corellan, and the dude's favored weapon is the longsword. What gives? Fans overriding canon?
 

Remove ads

Top