D&D 5E At Your 5E Table, How Is It Agreed upon That the PCs Do Stuff Other than Attack?

[Oofta]

The PHB gives examples of specific active uses of perception.

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Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are ogres lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom ( Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success.

Your senses of things you don't see that you are not specifically looking for is generally handled with passive perception.

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HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.

If someone is putting their ear to the door and listening, I would give them a perception check. If appropriate to the scene I would also include the fact that they smell smoke wafting from under the door or that the door feels exceptionally cool or any number of other things.

If they go to listen at a door, I'll probably double check if they're actually putting their ear to the door if it matters (bad example because it would never matter because I think contact poison is dumb) since I'm not a gotcha DM. A lot of issues seem to come up because DMs will punish players for not being specific. I don't. I may ask for specifics in certain situations, zooming in on details.

But again, I have never seen this in an actual game. Yes, you may be attempting to hear a conversation through an open window but because you're paying close attention, you may feel the earth vibrate under your feet as a giant approaches.

If listening at a window meant I didn't get something my other senses would have picked up, I'll just start adding every other sense I can think of to the list of what I'm doing.

 

[Mannahnin]

The PHB gives examples of specific active uses of perception.

Page 178:

Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are ogres lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom ( Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success.

Your senses of things you don't see that you are not specifically looking for is generally handled with passive perception.

Page 177:

HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.

Ok, so sample action declarations per the PH include:

"I walk over to the door and put my ear against it, trying to hear anything on the other side."
"I go over to and crouch under the open window where you said I heard murmuring voices. Can I hear the conversation/any details?"
"I check those bushes you said are by the side of the road- anyone hiding in there?"
"I check the wall for a secret door"
"I check the desk drawer for a trap"
"I make a circuit of the room, poking at the furniture and knick-knacks and looking for anything hidden among them."
"I open the drawers and search the bureau"

 

[Oofta]

This sounds like you're saying that you use active perception checks as a prompt from the players to remind you to give more details you may have forgotten to in the first place. As Voadam noted, anything that you can just stand there and notice is supposed to be covered by Passive Perception.

The baseline rule is that if it's something you could notice just by stopping and standing there, using your senses, you would have noticed it with Passive Perception. So the question is, what are you interacting with/examining more closely/actually doing to change the situation and give yourself a chance of seeing/hearing/smelling something else?


Literally all those details you say are "never forthcoming when asked" have been repeatedly provided to you, including in this thread. I'm in a state of some disbelief.

If I think something would be picked up with a passive perception, I'll give it without a check. If it's something a passive check didn't pick up on, I'll ask for an active check which indicates that they are "stopping for a moment and paying attention". But I see no reason to limit "paying attention" to be just one sense because in most cases that's not what people actually do. In real life if I get a sense that something's off I'm going to stop, look around, listen intently, pay attention to all my senses to figure out what it is. Just because I'm looking around it doesn't mean I've suddenly gone deaf.

Actual in play examples always seem to be lacking here. A stream or podcast that shows this, an actual transcript, details of when it matters could be useful. Because this has never been an issue in anything I've seen or heard.

 

[Oofta]

Ok, so sample action declarations per the PH include:

"I walk over to the door and put my ear against it, trying to hear anything on the other side."
"I go over to and crouch under the open window where you said I heard murmuring voices. Can I hear the conversation/any details?"
"I check those bushes you said are by the side of the road- anyone hiding in there?"
"I check the wall for a secret door"
"I check the desk drawer for a trap"
"I make a circuit of the room, poking at the furniture and knick-knacks and looking for anything hidden among them."
"I open the drawers and search the bureau"

These declared more than just a perception check. You're going over to the door, the open window, the bushes, opening drawers, etc. Those actions may or may not require a separate check.

Take the window scenario. I would tell people they can't hear anything, would they like to go closer. At that point they can move over to the window and I might ask for a stealth check. When they're at that window they may hear a conversation but since they're now at the window they may also smell apple pie baking. With a successful perception check they also smell almonds because the pie is being baked with cyanide and they notice it because they're concentrating on paying attention.

I've been hiking in the woods when I felt like something was "off". I stopped and looked around carefully. But I also paid attention to what I heard, in fact all my senses were a bit elevated. That to me is how a perception check works.

 

[Voadam]

If someone is putting their ear to the door and listening, I would give them a perception check. If appropriate to the scene I would also include the fact that they smell smoke wafting from under the door or that the door feels exceptionally cool or any number of other things.

If they go to listen at a door, I'll probably double check if they're actually putting their ear to the door if it matters (bad example because it would never matter because I think contact poison is dumb) since I'm not a gotcha DM. A lot of issues seem to come up because DMs will punish players for not being specific. I don't. I may ask for specifics in certain situations, zooming in on details.

But again, I have never seen this in an actual game. Yes, you may be attempting to hear a conversation through an open window but because you're paying close attention, you may feel the earth vibrate under your feet as a giant approaches.

If listening at a window meant I didn't get something my other senses would have picked up, I'll just start adding every other sense I can think of to the list of what I'm doing.

The key point there is they have narrated that they go to the window to check things out, more specifically listening for things on the other side.

That triggers you as the DM to adjudicate what more information they get as things change from their declared action. Since they are closer it is reasonable to say that due to their proximity they now smell smoke wafting under the frame, or the unusual coolness of the door, or the mimic door manifests a mouth and attacks them, or whatever. You might have them roll for their hearing stuff on the other side or not.

This is significantly different than "I make a perception check, 14."

 

[Oofta]

The key point there is they have narrated that they go to the window to check things out, more specifically listening for things on the other side.

Approaching the window has nothing to do with the perception check, it's a completely separate action.

That triggers you as the DM to adjudicate what more information they get as things change from their declared action. Since they are closer it is reasonable to say that due to their proximity they now smell smoke wafting under the frame, or the unusual coolness of the door, or the mimic door manifests a mouth and attacks them, or whatever. You might have them roll for their hearing stuff on the other side or not.


This is significantly different than "I make a perception check, 14."

Let's take an actual scenario. There have been a rash of poisonings in town and one of the suspects is "Granny Smith". The group has approached here cottage on the edge of town and notice there's an open window. This is the "I go over to and crouch under the open window where you said I heard murmuring voices. Can I hear the conversation/any details?" scenario.

In my game something like the following could happen.

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop."
3. DM: "Give me a stealth check as you approach."
4. Player: "12"
5. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. Give me a perception check."
6. Player: "18"
7. DM: "You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

This could also be as simple as the player saying "I sneak over to the window staying crouched down and make a perception check". It's obvious what the perception check is going to be for, and even if it wasn't I'm not going to withhold information because they only mentioned listening.

In step #3 there's a chance the PC could be noticed. If I make any assumptions about what the PCs are doing they will be in favor of the PC that they are taking reasonable precautions. The people inside are not paying much attention, it was a DC 5. On a side note if the PC was a rogue with training in stealth I wouldn't have bothered with a roll.

Step #7 was where we get to an actual perception check. Hearing the conversation was a DC 10, the apple pie was automatic, smelling cyanide which can smell like almonds was a DC 15.

So that's what I'm talking about. Approaching the window has nothing to do with the perception check. Once they were there I clarified they could not see in the window but then gave them everything I thought they could detect if paying close attention.

Would anyone not give them a chance to smell the pie and the cyanide because they only said they were listening?

 

[Voadam]

Let's take an actual scenario.

Sounds good.

There have been a rash of poisonings in town and one of the suspects is "Granny Smith". The group has approached here cottage on the edge of town and notice there's an open window. This is the "I go over to and crouch under the open window where you said I heard murmuring voices. Can I hear the conversation/any details?" scenario.

In my game something like the following could happen.

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop."
3. DM: "Give me a stealth check as you approach."
4. Player: "12"
5. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. Give me a perception check."
6. Player: "18"
7. DM: "You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

So in another by the book 5e game it could be.

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop."
3. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

This could also be as simple as the player saying "I sneak over to the window staying crouched down and make a perception check". It's obvious what the perception check is going to be for, and even if it wasn't I'm not going to withhold information because they only mentioned listening.

So your actual situation is:

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop." "I sneak over to the window staying crouched down and make a perception check"
3. DM: "Give me a stealth check as you approach."
4. Player: "12"
5. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. Give me a perception check."
6. Player: "18"
7. DM: "You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

Step #7 was where we get to an actual perception check. Hearing the conversation was a DC 10, the apple pie was automatic, smelling cyanide which can smell like almonds was a DC 15.

OK, you set DCs for this stuff. And you chose to do a roll for random chance instead of using passive perception.

So that's what I'm talking about. Approaching the window has nothing to do with the perception check.

If they didn't say they went over to the window and just asked for a perception check would their 18 have given them the same information?

Once they were there I clarified they could not see in the window but then gave them everything I thought they could detect if paying close attention.

No. Once they got to the window you assigned some specific DCs for noticing stuff and asked for a perception check. You specified there was stuff they automatically noticed just from their proximity (the pie) but you called for the check before giving them any information from their close attention.

Would anyone not give them a chance to smell the pie and the cyanide because they only said they were listening?

Another RAW option would be checking passive perception only unless they actively ask about the pie smell.

 

[Oofta]

Sounds good.

So in another by the book 5e game it could be.

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop."
3. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

So your actual situation is:

1. DM: "You hear murmuring voices coming from the cottage but aren't close enough to hear anything. You can see an open window."
2. Player: "I go over and crouch under the window so I can eavesdrop." "I sneak over to the window staying crouched down and make a perception check"

I explained that I will assume people are taking reasonable care. Don't change what I wrote, a player would not need to specify stealth in my game. I don't do gotcha DMing.

1. DM: "Give me a stealth check as you approach."
2. Player: "12"
3. DM: "You get to the window, crouched down low so you can't see in. Give me a perception check."
4. Player: "18"
5. DM: "You hear an old woman, presumably granny talking with [fill in details]. You also smell an apple pie cooking with a hint of almonds."

OK, you set DCs for this stuff. And you chose to do a roll for random chance instead of using passive perception.

I may use the better of passive perception or roll depending on the situation. This is not combat, so it's not a split second thing.

If they didn't say they went over to the window and just asked for a perception check would their 18 have given them the same information?

No. I already told them they can't hear clearly. Perhaps a high enough perception check could do it - say a 25 or higher.

No. Once they got to the window you assigned some specific DCs for noticing stuff and asked for a perception check. You specified there was stuff they automatically noticed just from their proximity (the pie) but you called for the check before giving them any information from their close attention.

Yes, I ask for rolls. I'm also specifically clarifying a scene for the player and noting that they can't see in the window if they're crouched underneath. If they want to peek in the window, that's a different action.

If they just said "I go up to the window" I might clarify or ask for details because it should have been obvious to them that just walking up to the window will mean they are clearly seen. On the other hand, I don't assume I always provide enough detail or that the player understood what I was describing for the scene. I give people the benefit of the doubt.

Another RAW option would be checking passive perception only unless they actively ask about the pie smell.

So because they stated that they are eavesdropping at the window, they would not notice the smell unless it was noticeable by their passive perception? Why on earth would they have any indication at all that they had to specify paying special attention to what they smell?

In my game perception checks do not need to be that specific. I would annoyed if I were in a game where it was required that I also have to specify that I'm smelling in order for it to be covered.

The PHB is not meant to be read like a legal document. It's not computer code. The examples are examples, not complete exploration of everything that could possibly be detected with a perception check.

 

[Oofta]

@Voadam, I'm thinking about starting a different thread/poll to expand on something and I just want to be clear on your stance, I don't want to misrepresent anything.

Let's say my player's PC has a passive perception of 14. I've decided that the DC to notice the smell of cyanide (almonds) is a 15. If the PC is in the cottage I described above and says "I look at the pie, is there anything strange about them?" you would not allow them to detect the almond smell from the cyanide? Because they didn't specify smelling the pie you've fallen back on their passive perception which is too low to detect the smell. Correct?

 

[Voadam]

@Voadam, I'm thinking about starting a different thread/poll to expand on something and I just want to be clear on your stance, I don't want to misrepresent anything.

Let's say my player's PC has a passive perception of 14. I've decided that the DC to notice the smell of cyanide (almonds) is a 15. If the PC is in the cottage I described above and says "I look at the pie, is there anything strange about them?" you would not allow them to detect the almond smell from the cyanide? Because they didn't specify smelling the pie you've fallen back on their passive perception which is too low to detect the smell. Correct?

This is a lot closer call than the window where they were actively focused on listening to the conversation and not actively checking out the pie at all. Here they are focused on the pie specifically, and "anything strange about them."

I would probably give them a check for that declared second part and not restrict it to visual strangeness. It makes sense narratively to me.

I would probably not sweat setting a DC at all though, I'd probably just go with giving them the oddness of the scent. Maybe rolling to determine whether they can specifically identify almond scent. The interesting part for me would be this coming up narratively and the player's recognition of the significance or not, mostly not from the success or failure of the rolls in this type of situation.

So my response would probably be: "Yes there is, the pie looks normal but as you check it out you notice there is something different about the fresh baked pie smell. DC 15 perception check to identify what specifically is different there."

For the listening at the window though I think the default RAW for a subtle smell they are not focusing on would be passive perception. They would get the automatic pie fresh baked pie smell and could focus more on that specifically as a declared action, especially if they are intellectually on the lookout for almond smells and communicate they are specifically trying to detect that.