Except the attack isn't an immediate interrupt, it's a free action. The only "step" it makes sense in is "other effects," in which case whether you believe the list on p. 268 is the specific order of operations or that the player can choose the order is irrelevant, because "other effects" are lower on the list than "ongoing damage" and thus you've already taken your ongoing damage for the turn by the time the rat swarm bites you, or the player chooses the order and chooses to resolve other effects after ongoing damage.
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Aura effects and continuing damage
- Thread starter Nikosandros
- Start date
Except the attack isn't an immediate interrupt, it's a free action. The only "step" it makes sense in is "other effects," in which case whether you believe the list on p. 268 is the specific order of operations or that the player can choose the order is irrelevant, because "other effects" are lower on the list than "ongoing damage" and thus you've already taken your ongoing damage for the turn by the time the rat swarm bites you, or the player chooses the order and chooses to resolve other effects after ongoing damage.
When a similiar issue came up (about the order in which things happening at the start of your turn take place), I sent a question to custserv. They told me that the acting creature got to choose in which order the "start of your turn" effects applied, so technically a warlock using Eyebite could choose to let the rats make their attack before the Eyebite effect lapses. I know custserv is not a very reliable source, but in this case their answer made a certain bit of sense, at least from a playability standpoint.
As for the original question I would rule that the creature hit by the rats' aura attack must take ongoing damage during the turn it got hit. This is because the "start of the round" phase is not over yet, and the rats' attack adds one more thing to do in the "start of the round" phase.
Finally about regeneration and ongoing damage you should note that regeneration doesn't apply if a creature is unconcious, so generally there shouldn't be a problem. With Consecrated Ground, though, there's a problem but I consider Consecrated Ground to be a problem in and of itself anyway.
As for the original question I would rule that the creature hit by the rats' aura attack must take ongoing damage during the turn it got hit. This is because the "start of the round" phase is not over yet, and the rats' attack adds one more thing to do in the "start of the round" phase.
Finally about regeneration and ongoing damage you should note that regeneration doesn't apply if a creature is unconcious, so generally there shouldn't be a problem. With Consecrated Ground, though, there's a problem but I consider Consecrated Ground to be a problem in and of itself anyway.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Well, there is a big thread debating that - the PHB has an unordered list, and some people think that it implies an order of operations within the 'beginning of the turn phase' while others think that the fact it is an unordered list doesn't imply an order.
I'm one of the latter, personally.
Cheers
SableWyvern
Adventurer
Dying characters do not regenerate.
I agree, based on the fact that there are numbered lists in the PHB for things that have a specific order and the fact that the last item on the list, "no actions," isn't a step in anything, but a global rule regarding the start of your turn.
Most of the time order won't matter, but when it does it's helpful to let the player choose the order to resolve them. If I'm taking ongoing necrotic 5 and get hit by an effect that gives me vulnerable 5 necrotic till the start of my next turn, you can bet I want to resolve "end effects" before "ongoing damage."
I'm pretty sure I've seen one of the designers (probably Mearls) mention that he lets the player whose turn it is determine order of operations for start-of-turn and end-of-turn stuff in those cases where it matters. Sometimes a player might want to do regeneration before ongoing damage (if he's close to 0), and other times he might want to do it after (if he's close to full health).
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Yes, I've seen someone from WotC saying that too... it wasn't Mearls though.
It makes sense and it's how I'll be running things.
However, as dervish remarked earlier, you have to resolve the ongoing damage before you can conclude your start of turn.
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Upon rereading the relevant passage in the PHB, I realized that this statement doesn't make any sense. All those steps are explicitly part of the "start of turn" phase.
eamon
Explorer
Certainly the list on p. 268 isn't strictly ordered; the last point doesn't make any sense in an ordered list.
I don't have a preference for an order. Note that in most cases you can't avoid taking ongoing damage at least once before saving; I think it's balanced to place the aura before the ongoing damage section. On the other hand ongoing damage represents slow damage dealt over an entire round, and there's been no such round if you're hit and have the damage dealt immediately. It might be best to just let the victim decide, indeed, which in this case unsurprisingly leads to less damage.
I don't have a preference for an order. Note that in most cases you can't avoid taking ongoing damage at least once before saving; I think it's balanced to place the aura before the ongoing damage section. On the other hand ongoing damage represents slow damage dealt over an entire round, and there's been no such round if you're hit and have the damage dealt immediately. It might be best to just let the victim decide, indeed, which in this case unsurprisingly leads to less damage.
While the discussion of ordered versus unordered lists is quite interesting, the specific case of the rat swarm doesn't require an answer to that.
From MM, page 219: "the rat swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura".
The PHB, on pages 268-269, is extraordinarily clear on the subject of free actions. They can be taken during any character's turn (not just the actor's own turn) during the "Actions On Your Turn" segment. They cannot be taken during either the "Start" or "End" segments of a turn. This is compatible with the aura description, which doesn't specify that the attack takes place at the "Start" of the victim's turn, only that beginning a turn within the aura is the trigger for the attack.
So in this specific case, the victim's turn begins (completing all of the "The Start Of Your Turn" tasks, whether ordered or unordered), and then the victim begins the "Actions On Your Turn" segment, at which point (before the victim can take any actions of their own) the rat swarm attacks.
This means that the victim takes attack damage immediately, but will not take ongoing damage until the start of their next turn.
From MM, page 219: "the rat swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura".
The PHB, on pages 268-269, is extraordinarily clear on the subject of free actions. They can be taken during any character's turn (not just the actor's own turn) during the "Actions On Your Turn" segment. They cannot be taken during either the "Start" or "End" segments of a turn. This is compatible with the aura description, which doesn't specify that the attack takes place at the "Start" of the victim's turn, only that beginning a turn within the aura is the trigger for the attack.
So in this specific case, the victim's turn begins (completing all of the "The Start Of Your Turn" tasks, whether ordered or unordered), and then the victim begins the "Actions On Your Turn" segment, at which point (before the victim can take any actions of their own) the rat swarm attacks.
This means that the victim takes attack damage immediately, but will not take ongoing damage until the start of their next turn.
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