Avenger Impressions

[Ulrik]

Somebody on the charops board mentioned that Avengers will shine when facing higher level monsters, as the double roll is more worth the higher the number you need to roll to hit is. I punched some numbers in a spread sheet, and the while the Oath gives only a 45% increase in average damage if you need a 10 to hit, it gives a 75% increase if you need a 16.

This is discounting crits, though. As the required to hit goes up crits make up a larger percentage of damage, but as the Avenger has twice the crit chance of others (pre-epic), I would think that it would be to his advantage, but I haven't run the numbers on it.

 

[Simplicity]

I think the Avenger is the Warlord of the PHB2. You're either going to love it or hate it. But either way, it's an advance to the genre of role-based party combat games (what a mouthful). It's almost a new role. They're actively useful against skirmishers and controllers. These guys will hunt your mage or rogue down and kill them dead. But they're passively protected from defender type powers.

Defenders are like battlefield sovereign glue and Avengers are universal solvent.

 

[Quickleaf]

Does anyone find that the avenger wielding 2-handed weapons is incongruous to its stealthy religious assassin concept? The falchion I could maybe see, but a greataxe or glaive, what??

Fyi, I don't have PHB2 yet, so I'm basing this on the photos released online.

 

[Simplicity]

Does anyone find that the avenger wielding 2-handed weapons is incongruous to its stealthy religious assassin concept? The falchion I could maybe see, but a greataxe or glaive, what??

Fyi, I don't have PHB2 yet, so I'm basing this on the photos released online.

I don't think the religious assassin concept is that apt, actually. You CAN play it that way, but I don't think it's core to the class. Stealth just isn't that important to an Avenger that I can see. It's just more like single-minded, brutal pursuit and isolation. Imagine Tommy Lee Jones from The Fugitive. Now imagine he pushed Harrison Ford off the dam, then leapt after him, then beat him to death in the river.

 

[Cadfan]

Stealth isn't intrinsic to the concept of the avenger. Its an option, yes, but its not integral.

 

[Obryn]

You will probably think I'm crazy, but I mentioned on another board that an Avenger could be reskinned to make a really fascinating monk-like character, if you allow them to use their hands as any given Military weapon. I might require them to "focus" prior to combat as a minor action (or, "draw their fists" if you will) but I think it could be a lot of fun.

(And from there, I'd allow appropriate enchantments to be transferred from an appropriate weapon to their fists at little or no charge, so long as it was compatible with the weapon their fists are emulating.)

-O

 

[Jhaelen]

It's almost a new role. They're actively useful against skirmishers and controllers. These guys will hunt your mage or rogue down and kill them dead. But they're passively protected from defender type powers.

You will probably think I'm crazy, but I mentioned on another board that an Avenger could be reskinned to make a really fascinating monk-like character

Hehe, when reading that part of Simplicity's post, I thought: "Well, isn't that what the monk's role was in 3E?" It'll be interesting to see what the real 4E monk will be like.

 

[Treebore]

After having played the Avenger on WW D&D Day I can say most, if not all, "problems" feared by posters in this thread are unfounded, at least at 11th level. My damage was only exceeded by the Barbarian on a regular basis, I worked well with other party members in teaming up on the bad guys, especially in the final encounter, but I was also tough enough to stand on my own for a while when needed, and despite getting to roll my to hits twice I still missed with 2 of my daily powers in the final encounter against the BBEG.

All its powers do make for some interesting and even fun tactical choices, when I succeeded in hitting.

I definitely had fun playing it, and I think over all I was definitely more effective than the Bard or Paladin, a good part fo that was due to bad rolls on their parts, though, not anything to do with actual powers.

 

[morgul97]

When I first read the Avenger's entry over the weekend, I thought that the Oath of Enmity made them terribly over-powered. I'm not a dice rolling probability master, so I haven't worked out exactly how much of a bump rolling two d20's (and taking the best) is vs. just rolling a single die, but clearly it greatly statistically increases your chance of hitting. However, as others have mentioned, Avenger's a maybe a bit below the norm in terms of damage output. Also, they have not one single power that allows them to do damage to more than one foe at a time. No area attacks at all. It's all focused on one foe, which seems to me to make them very strikery. The goal was to have them separate from the pack, isolate one enemy, and work on them off in the corner. Most of the Avenger's abilities are tied directly to that task. Being off in the corner with one foe also reduces some of the OP potential, as they aren't really able to flank or give any other bonuses. All of this offsets the impact of the two rolls from Oath of Emnity. I think it's a cool concept and they pull it off well, both mechanically and flavor-wise.

 

[TarionzCousin]

... and despite getting to roll my to hits twice I still missed with 2 of my daily powers in the final encounter against the BBEG.

That's not a design flaw; it's "user error."

All its powers do make for some interesting and even fun tactical choices, when I succeeded in hitting.

I definitely had fun playing it....

Yeah, the important thing is that to some people, it is a new kind of fun that wasn't readily available in 4E before now. My girlfriend, for example, hates rolling poorly and loves the Deadly Trickster Epic Destiny's "Three d20 re-rolls per day." This is her kind of mechanic.