D
dco
Guest
That "artifical" pause comes when someone throws dice, the only solution is to play a pure narrative game.
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D&D 5E Avoiding Initiative
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Harzel
Adventurer
After using the standard initiative procedure for quite a while, I started doing something like this a few months ago. Declarations go in order of INT from lowest to highest, but then everything resolves as if it all happens at once. In the relatively rare cases where order matters, just the parties concerned roll initiative.
However, I started doing this because to me the standard turn taking feels quite stilted and gamey, not because I had anything against initiative rolls per se. Although I do like the resulting feel much better, it was more of an adjustment than I anticipated. Some of the players are still a little uncomfortable with it, so I'm not sure it will survive. If I have to ditch it, I'll just go back to standard initiative.
Sounds cool! But I imagine my players, who are pretty strategically minded, would also dislike this. As a DM I often find the predictability of rounds a (slight) problem.
I guess for me, rolling initiative seems to force the combat outcome. Rather than a fight organically developing (or not) from the narrative, the DM decides OK a fight is about to break out (even if the players don't actually want that) and everyone needs to roll initiative.
By having the initiative pre-rolled it allows a fight to break out when a PC draws their sword or the wizard blasts a firebolt or a guard grabs one of the PCs or whatever.
The initiating action starts combat (whether from the DM or PC side) not rolling initiative.
I've found the best way to "ungamify" the combat round is to narrate in and out of each characters turn. Rather than saying*:
"OK Jim (or the PC name), you're up"
I'll say:
"Jane just deflects the blow from the Orc but she's on her last legs. Jim what do you do?"
For TotM combats especially I find it essential to keep refreshing the state of the combat for the players and the narration helps to integrate that smoothly.
(*Note: I'm not saying that this is how you narrate
- you just gave me a jumping off point)
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I've found the best way to "ungamify" the combat round is to narrate in and out of each characters turn. Rather than saying*:
"OK Jim (or the PC name), you're up"
I'll say:
"Jane just deflects the blow from the Orc but she's on her last legs. Jim what do you do?"
For TotM combats especially I find it essential to keep refreshing the state of the combat for the players and the narration helps to integrate that smoothly.
(*Note: I'm not saying that this is how you narrate
Right! Remember, there are three steps to the conversation of the game: (1) DM describes the environment, (2) Players describe what they want to do, (3) DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions. Then it repeats. So when one player has completed a turn, it's time for the DM to jump back to Step 1 and recap the situation in a succinct way, before handing it off to the next player. This loop keeps things moving and nicely descriptive as compared to "Jim, you're up."
akr71
Hero
I don't mind the pause, either as a DM or a player. It gives the players a chance to consider what they are going to do. What kills the flow for me is when I tell a player it is their turn and then they start looking over their character sheet, spell lists and magic items. Why do you wait? Why couldn't you figure this while others are taking their turns? When I am a player, I have that all figured out well before my turn. There is the odd time that as combat unfolds, I have to change my plan because a comrade needs help, my intended target is down or a new threat has presented itself. Its combat - go with your gut, play in the moment! Each round is only 6 seconds and your turn is just a bit part of that - its ok if your turn is non-optimal, but just reactionary bashing on the nearest baddie!
pming
Legend
Hiya!
[RE: The MasterBook DramaDeck/PlotDeck system]
The MasterBook system uses a deck of special cards, and there is an optional "Plot Development Deck" you can use by itself or with them.
Here is the Precis Intermedia web page for them; it's got an example card picture on it I'll use for explanation:
http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=107&products_id=642
Ok, generally the deck sits there on the table in the middle so everyone can see/access. I use the Plot deck too, so it's mixed in with the "MasterDeck" cards. Anyway, at the beginning of a combat, the GM flips over the top card. Using the example card show at the above web site, it shows two cards. The one with the Black on top and Red on bottom is what is used for Initiative.
See the line's that have "S" and "D"? That stands for Standard and Dramatic. If the situation is a "Standard" one, so things in D&D like a random encounter, or most of the encounters dealing with the rabble, fodder, and general 'monster population' of the area. The "Dramatic" one is for when the PC's get to the BBEG, or encounter an important NPC/Monster (like the Orc Generals Sargent, Lt. or Shaman...you know, 'dramatic' situations).
The "G" and "P" after the S/D simply mean "GM" and "Players". This refers to the side that goes first. First listed, goes first. In the example we have "S: P: -- G: Fatigued". Means that the Players go first, and when the GM goes, the monsters/NPC's also automatically get the 'Fatigued' status for that round. The next line is the "D: G: Flurry P: --". Meaning that the GM side goes first, and they get the Flurry status applied to them.
The bottom part, in Red? It says "Action" and then "Attack/Defend" under it? That is the "approved action" for that round. If a player succeeds in using a (or the) Approved Action during the round in an appropriate manner, they can immediately draw another card from the top of the deck and put it into their Hand. It's a way to encourage players to do more than just swing or blast away round after round. So if the approved action says "Trick/Taunt", the player can have his PC try and use an appropriate skill to try and Trick or Taunt (there's a "Resolution Table" in the game that is the core of a lot of it...too much to detail here though). He can just swing again, or he can opt to try and Trick/Taunt his opponent. Success gives him another card...which is always a good thing! (More choices to add to your card Pool, round to round).
And that's Initiative. The card tells you who goes first, if anything is applied to one side or not, and has results for both Standard encounters/situations and Dramatic ones.
Everything else on the card is basically used for game stuff. The example card isn't very good as an example, because it uses a more rare type of "action line" (the white one in the middle that says "Complication"). This area is called the "Critical Skill Resolution" line.
Normally this line will have "SKILL A B" or "SKILL A B C" or "SKILL D"; the letters denote a 'step' in a task that needs to be succeeded with that round to count as progress towards success. It's kind of like a "Skill Challenge" from 4e...if I understand 4e for it; never played 4e. Anyway, the GM sets up a dramatic skill resolution sequence. Say the PC's activate a trap; the rooms doors get barred and water starts filling up. The GM could have decided "in 6 rounds it will be fully underwater; Step A (Investigate/Find Traps/Perception to locate access panel) /// Step B (Investigate/Engineering-Stonework to open/deduce mechanism) /// Step C (Remove Traps/Engineering-Mechanical to stop water and start drainage)". When the first round comes up, the card is flipped. If there is an "A" in the skill line, the PC can make a roll. Next round, new card. There needs to be a B on it for the skill line or progress can't be achieved. Then, after a B shows up and the PC succeeds, you need to see a C for the final check. This all has to be done fast...or the PC's might start drowning! It really does add to the tension of a scene. Combine a Critical Skill Resolution task with an actual combat and BLAMO! You have the perfect example of action-movie scenes where some PC's are holding off the snakes/cannibals/robots/aliens as another is frantically trying to find the switch/control panel to open the door/gate/bulkhead before everyone is over run and dies horrible, horrible deaths!
Sorry I went into a bit more detail other than just the Initiative part. But I felt it worth the mention. Personally I, and my players, REALLY enjoy the hell out of the MasterDeck/PlotDeck! We try and use it for just about any game...it just adds a lot of dynamic storytelling to the session and combats. Really cool stuff!
^_^
Paul L. Ming
[RE: The MasterBook DramaDeck/PlotDeck system]
The MasterBook system uses a deck of special cards, and there is an optional "Plot Development Deck" you can use by itself or with them.
Here is the Precis Intermedia web page for them; it's got an example card picture on it I'll use for explanation:
http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=107&products_id=642
Ok, generally the deck sits there on the table in the middle so everyone can see/access. I use the Plot deck too, so it's mixed in with the "MasterDeck" cards. Anyway, at the beginning of a combat, the GM flips over the top card. Using the example card show at the above web site, it shows two cards. The one with the Black on top and Red on bottom is what is used for Initiative.
See the line's that have "S" and "D"? That stands for Standard and Dramatic. If the situation is a "Standard" one, so things in D&D like a random encounter, or most of the encounters dealing with the rabble, fodder, and general 'monster population' of the area. The "Dramatic" one is for when the PC's get to the BBEG, or encounter an important NPC/Monster (like the Orc Generals Sargent, Lt. or Shaman...you know, 'dramatic' situations).
The "G" and "P" after the S/D simply mean "GM" and "Players". This refers to the side that goes first. First listed, goes first. In the example we have "S: P: -- G: Fatigued". Means that the Players go first, and when the GM goes, the monsters/NPC's also automatically get the 'Fatigued' status for that round. The next line is the "D: G: Flurry P: --". Meaning that the GM side goes first, and they get the Flurry status applied to them.
The bottom part, in Red? It says "Action" and then "Attack/Defend" under it? That is the "approved action" for that round. If a player succeeds in using a (or the) Approved Action during the round in an appropriate manner, they can immediately draw another card from the top of the deck and put it into their Hand. It's a way to encourage players to do more than just swing or blast away round after round. So if the approved action says "Trick/Taunt", the player can have his PC try and use an appropriate skill to try and Trick or Taunt (there's a "Resolution Table" in the game that is the core of a lot of it...too much to detail here though). He can just swing again, or he can opt to try and Trick/Taunt his opponent. Success gives him another card...which is always a good thing! (More choices to add to your card Pool, round to round).
And that's Initiative. The card tells you who goes first, if anything is applied to one side or not, and has results for both Standard encounters/situations and Dramatic ones.
Everything else on the card is basically used for game stuff. The example card isn't very good as an example, because it uses a more rare type of "action line" (the white one in the middle that says "Complication"). This area is called the "Critical Skill Resolution" line.
Normally this line will have "SKILL A B" or "SKILL A B C" or "SKILL D"; the letters denote a 'step' in a task that needs to be succeeded with that round to count as progress towards success. It's kind of like a "Skill Challenge" from 4e...if I understand 4e for it; never played 4e. Anyway, the GM sets up a dramatic skill resolution sequence. Say the PC's activate a trap; the rooms doors get barred and water starts filling up. The GM could have decided "in 6 rounds it will be fully underwater; Step A (Investigate/Find Traps/Perception to locate access panel) /// Step B (Investigate/Engineering-Stonework to open/deduce mechanism) /// Step C (Remove Traps/Engineering-Mechanical to stop water and start drainage)". When the first round comes up, the card is flipped. If there is an "A" in the skill line, the PC can make a roll. Next round, new card. There needs to be a B on it for the skill line or progress can't be achieved. Then, after a B shows up and the PC succeeds, you need to see a C for the final check. This all has to be done fast...or the PC's might start drowning! It really does add to the tension of a scene. Combine a Critical Skill Resolution task with an actual combat and BLAMO! You have the perfect example of action-movie scenes where some PC's are holding off the snakes/cannibals/robots/aliens as another is frantically trying to find the switch/control panel to open the door/gate/bulkhead before everyone is over run and dies horrible, horrible deaths!
Sorry I went into a bit more detail other than just the Initiative part. But I felt it worth the mention. Personally I, and my players, REALLY enjoy the hell out of the MasterDeck/PlotDeck! We try and use it for just about any game...it just adds a lot of dynamic storytelling to the session and combats. Really cool stuff!
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
I used to call for an initiative roll preemptively at the beginning of an encounter. This method had me resolving some non-combat situations in initiative order until it was clear there would be no fighting. Then, after getting a lot of good advise here in response to this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?466595-When-to-Roll-Initiative, I changed my method to calling for initiative only after an action has been declared (either by player or DM) that requires resolution in initiative order. I find this makes the purpose of the initiative roll apparent to everyone at the table. It's an ability check that resolves the uncertainty of the timing of the declared action relative to any responses to the initiation of that action.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
I wish I knew. I've got my first 5e group up to level 7, and already I'm starting to dread combat.
I switched to Mearlsian Initiative, and my guys like it. However, combat in D&D just seems to drag so much. I mean, the rest of the game is fine, a couple rolls, make a check, move on...but then combat starts and everything slows down.
Honestly, I blame damage and all the fiddly options more than initiative. Sure, IGOUGO makes things all stilted and clockworky, but calculating damage and subtracting hp and everything just....ugh. As I get older, I start to lean more towards some kind of "countdown" system like ICRPG uses for a lot of stuff. (Which, I suppose might just indicate that the problem is with the number of HP, rather than HP themselves.)
I know it would be a massive change from D&D (as in dropping out a good deal of traditional tactics entirely), but I am desperately intrigued by Uncharted Worlds and its "one roll combats" (they aren't, really, but its close.) Let it be a plot beat or a few and lets move on. In the end, the mechanical details of the combat are (generally) so unimportant. Even worse, once combat starts, I kinda get the feeling that everything dramatic goes away. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. Its just about chewing through the bad guys' HP until they are all dead.
I switched to Mearlsian Initiative, and my guys like it. However, combat in D&D just seems to drag so much. I mean, the rest of the game is fine, a couple rolls, make a check, move on...but then combat starts and everything slows down.
Honestly, I blame damage and all the fiddly options more than initiative. Sure, IGOUGO makes things all stilted and clockworky, but calculating damage and subtracting hp and everything just....ugh. As I get older, I start to lean more towards some kind of "countdown" system like ICRPG uses for a lot of stuff. (Which, I suppose might just indicate that the problem is with the number of HP, rather than HP themselves.)
I know it would be a massive change from D&D (as in dropping out a good deal of traditional tactics entirely), but I am desperately intrigued by Uncharted Worlds and its "one roll combats" (they aren't, really, but its close.) Let it be a plot beat or a few and lets move on. In the end, the mechanical details of the combat are (generally) so unimportant. Even worse, once combat starts, I kinda get the feeling that everything dramatic goes away. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. Its just about chewing through the bad guys' HP until they are all dead.
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