Baatorian Law vs Paladin

[Nebrok]

Here's the situation that has come up in one of my sessions where I am a DM.

One of the PCs, a female paladin, by bad luck and poor choices ended up as a prosinor and slave to a horned devil in the lawful evil plane of Baator. And the question of how far does a paladins lawfulness goes came up. A paladin normally must abide by the law of the land, but what if that land is the Nine Hells. Does she follow the laws of Baator in order to simply survive long enough to escape, or does she follow the laws out of her lawful nature (forgoing any evil acts of course). Further more, does following the law of the Nine Hells make her non-good, or on the flip side does breaking the laws there make her unlawful?

 

[Lackhand]

Here's the situation that has come up in one of my sessions where I am a DM.

One of the PCs, a female paladin, by bad luck and poor choices ended up as a prosinor and slave to a horned devil in the lawful evil plane of Baator. And the question of how far does a paladins lawfulness goes came up. A paladin normally must abide by the law of the land, but what if that land is the Nine Hells. Does she follow the laws of Baator in order to simply survive long enough to escape, or does she follow the laws out of her lawful nature (forgoing any evil acts of course). Further more, does following the law of the Nine Hells make her non-good, or on the flip side does breaking the laws there make her unlawful?

I don't really have an answer for you -- I like using Law v Chaos or Good v Evil as cosmic forces, and having the other be more like a descriptor of personality with few game effects...
... but thank you, paladin/alignment threads; I've missed you, and your presence is the surest sign that people are gaming happily that I could ask for

Anyway, my take on it is that Paladins are Lawful, in that they're honorable and keep their word, and Good, in that they're, well, good. When the two conflict, it's up to the paladin and their god which one to follow, but hint: If you can't get both, it's probably better to be known as altruistic, benevolent, and a defender of the meek than as a rigorous, methodical, principled individual.

Either way, as long as the paladin seems to be operating as lawfully good in a vacuum (do deeds really change their moral and ethical qualities based solely on geographical location?), and the player wants to stay Lawful Good, they should stay Lawful Good.

But maybe that's just me

 

[M.L. Martin]

If following the laws of the exemplar of Lawful Evil societies is required to be 'Lawful', then doesn't Lawful really boil down to a "might makes right" concept?

I would think a paladin is required to respect legitimate authority, so long as it does not conflict with 'divine law' (Goodness). It is highly debatable as to whether the rulers of Baator can be considered rightful authority, and even moreso if any laws established therein can be considered in harmony with Good.

Basically, would the situation that resulted in the paladin becoming enslaved be considered morally and ethically legitimate by the laws of her order and deity? If so--say, for example, the paladin made a bargain "Let these innocents go, and I'll stay"--then she has made her bed and must lie in it, although she should probably keep an eye out for violations of whatever agreement or conditions started the transaction. That, however, falls more under 'keeping your word' than 'respect for law'. If it's a case of force or fraud on the cornugon's part, though, then grab the nearest spoon and start digging.

 

[Nebrok]

It is highly debatable as to whether the rulers of Baator can be considered rightful authority

From reading the "Fiendish Codex II: Tyeants of the Nine Hellshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search?search=Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells" I know the following.

Devils have an arrangement with the gods of law that goes something like this: We will fight and keep the demons from over-running everything for you so you don't have to (the blood war) and you let us have the souls of the lawful evil mortals when they die so we will have the power to keep doing it. Very much abridged but there it is. There is some kind of acknowledgement from the gods of law regarding Baatorian law, even if it is a small bit. Baator exists because the Gods of law will not break their agreement with Asmodeus, the lord of the nine and all Baator.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Lawful has nothing to do with following the laws of whatever particular place that you're currently in. Being Lawful means following a certain set of laws or a moral code. Whether it be the laws of the Duchy of Hometownland; the divine will of his most holy Goody-two-shoes, blessed be he; or your own personal code.

As a side note, this is why it's almost always the lawful of the evil villains that will have particular compunctions that stand out against their otherwise horrific actions. Like honoring a foe's surrender, not killing children, or being a Devil, and thus while trying to stretch the terms of a contract and find any possible loopholes, will nonetheless obey the contract so far as they must to not go against what it restricts/requires.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO "Lawful" has nothing to do with "follows random laws". It has to do with favoring organizations over individuals.

Lawful Good: "I do not like you, sir, but I respect the office you represent."

Chaotic Good: "I don't care if he is the mayor! He's a jerk!"

- - -

That said: there's nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, about the Nine Hells that would earn the respect or admiration of a Paladin. They may be organized, but it's an organization based on the worst kind of tyranny imaginable.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Andor]

I would suggest the Paladin abide by whatever laws govern prisoners/slaves where she comes from.

E.G. Under the Geneva convention a military prisoner has both rights and duties. He has to give his name, rank and serial number when asked, but canot be compeled to give more than that. He can be made to work, but not to commit treason against his country. American PoWs consider themselves to be under the geneva convention whether or not the country holding them prisoner is actually a signatory.

It depends on the details of the paladins culture and the circumstances of her capture. However the paladin herself ought to know what is expected of her, I would not screw her out of her paladinhood by making her guess what the right course of action is.

As an aside the concept of parole covers almost any deal that can be worked out between the two parties. So if you do want to screw with the paladin she could be paroled under an agreement that she not reveal any of the Devils plots, nor attack him save in self-defense. Then when she gets home she recognizes the demons necklace on an advisor at the King's court. Now she has a Paladin alignment dilemma! Does she abide by her agreement of parole? Does she sacrifice her freedom by revealing the demon? Does she try to have her cake and eat it too by trying to defeat him without being taken prisoner again?

 

[Baron Opal]

She needs to keep her head down and mouth shut until the rest of the party comes to rescue her. And when they do rescue her, she will have the opportunity to provide useful and damaging intelligence to the Good Guys.

 

[Runestar]

In theory, if the paladin is obliged to follow an order that violates her own morals, would the only path left to her be to take her own life?

 

[Andor]

In theory, if the paladin is obliged to follow an order that violates her own morals, would the only path left to her be to take her own life?

Depends on the millieu. A paladin Samurai? Sure, they'll commit seppuku at the drop of a hat. A christian grail knight? Not an option, suicide is a deadly sin with automatic damnation. And since she was a devils captive to begin with he might not even notice she did it.