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Bad GM rulings? How would you rule?

moritheil

First Post
sirwmholder said:
This statement has a high degree of truth to it... though I have sucessfully ran campaigns were characters have to make the hard choices. Are they going to let the village be overrun while they chase down the BBEG to end it once and for all or do they stay and fight off the invading horde? It gives real weight to their decision knowning that they can't be everywhere at the same time.

I can see how a lingering party not thinking of checking on their friends might would be upset. Though they should be upset with themselves for failing their companions not with the DM.

To the OP... good job though if you are going to run a deadly game make death hurt and not just a speed bump.

William Holder

Yeah, the thing is, I would not have killed the character and told them afterwards. I would have done something like have everyone make an Int or Sense Motive check when the BBEG goes Ethereal and sinks into the floor. Then I would tell the ones who rolled highest something like, "It occurs to you that you left your pal Noobicus Andromedus back that way. The BBEG might conceivably be about to do something to him! Oh no!"

Then they get to scramble to save their buddy and arrive too late anyway. Same outcome, but they were more involved.
 

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Infiniti2000

First Post
azhrei_fje said:
BINGO! That's exactly my point! We played up to the point that the damage had been done. What else was expected?
Nothing. The players have no basis for their griping.

azhrei_fje said:
You know the real kicker? I didn't realize until the battle was over, but the protection from evil that prevented a compulsion spell (greater command) had run out for 4 of the 6 PCs about 5 rounds earlier!
Two things: (1) whether greater command provides ongoing control is debatable, but neither here nor there; (2) that was some really long combat to enable you to track such a long spell at that high level. I have to admit that I have never had a combat last for 12-14 minutes. The odds of the PfE actually running out during the greater command are pretty slim (considering when the respective spells would have to be cast and other variables).
 

azhrei_fje

First Post
moritheil said:
Yeah, the thing is, I would not have killed the character and told them afterwards. I would have done something like have everyone make an Int or Sense Motive check when the BBEG goes Ethereal and sinks into the floor. Then I would tell the ones who rolled highest something like, "It occurs to you that you left your pal Noobicus Andromedus back that way. The BBEG might conceivably be about to do something to him! Oh no!"

Then they get to scramble to save their buddy and arrive too late anyway. Same outcome, but they were more involved.
Darn! That would've ben a great way to play it! They could've avoided doing "silly stuff" and instead gone to check on their comrade. I wish I had thought of that at the time. :(

Infiniti2000 said:
Two things: (1) whether greater command provides ongoing control is debatable, but neither here nor there; (2) that was some really long combat to enable you to track such a long spell at that high level.
They didn't have enough PfE prepared for the clerics to cast it on everyone, so only two PCs had prepared PfE cast on them, the rest got the PfE from a wand. Even so, I wasn't about to track the amount of time taken to actually use the wand, so I just said, "Four charges used. Ten rounds before they expire." Since I'm using DM Genie to track spell durations and the like, I could've tracked individual spells without way too much effort, but this was simpler.

So in reality, since there was only one wand that was passed around to cast the spells four times; one should've expired at round 7, one at round 8, one at round 9, and the last at round 10. But I'm sure you've all had situations where you've missed a spell expiration because it was a buff spell that you'd forgotten about... And that's NOT the type of thing the players will remind you about, even if they remember. As a player, I might or I might not...

Infiniti2000 said:
I have to admit that I have never had a combat last for 12-14 minutes. The odds of the PfE actually running out during the greater command are pretty slim (considering when the respective spells would have to be cast and other variables).
I did once have a combat last 84 rounds!! It took two game sessions to finish. The BBEG teleport'd away to heal up (he was part demon and had teleport as a SLA; even failed the Concentration check a couple times, so it got very close for him). But boy! was there some celebration when their long-time nemesis was out of the picture! (He was the bad guy for them from about level 2 to level 9 or so.)
 

azhrei_fje

First Post
Man in the Funny Hat said:
As I noted in another post, if the DM wants to win - he wins. If he wants to kill a PC for any reason - they die. Players will understandably get upset if they find their PC in a situation where the DM has "engineered" there to be NO CHANCE of escape, rescue, or other success. It doesn't have to be true that the DM has in fact done so. Players will get upset merely if it APPEARS so.
I agree. So looking at the facts in this situation, let's see if I "had it in" for the PCs:

1. PC succumbs to insanity effect from a symbol.
2. Party clerics can't/don't heal her (don't remember if they had the spells and were saving them; they did this when the fighter was hit with feeblemind and they didn't want to use the heal until there was -quote- REAL DAMAGE -quote-).
3. They can't control the insane PC, so they use calm emotions and talk with her. When calm emotions wears off, she once again attacks the party!
4. They knock her unconscious and tie her up, hands and feet, and gag her.
5. She and the cult traitor (a body without a soul, so effectively in a coma) are left at the bottom of the stairs going up to the level where the combat will take place.
6. The level the unconscious PCs are left on is the same one that holds the quarters for the top three head-honchos of the cult! If they were to word of recall back home, where are they most likely to appear? This floor of the tower is only 30-foot diameter, so the distances are short.
7. While all this combat is going on, the BBEG and her minion are buffing up on the next level. They see the light source from the party's torches flickering against the walls near the stairs and they hear the screaming and clash of weapons on the floor below. In addition, they were warned by other minions on other levels of the tower.

Now when BBEG is getting her butt kicked and decides to leave, she sees the two tied up people on the floor below. This is her stronghold -- she knows not just the layout of the tower, but every nook and cranny. She's not that far down on hit points and knows that staying ethereal is what the party would expect, so she wants to change her mode of travel anyway.

Did the GM engineer the situation? I honestly don't think so. Did the BBEG take advantage of the party members left behind by the party? Definitely.

There were a number of things that the party could've done.

Hindsight is 20/20 and given the knowledge of future events I would've said, "Are you sure it's a good idea to leave party members just laying here? In the cult's stronghold??"

For players to continue to draw enjoyment out of the game, even when the game is supposed to be harsh, they will need to feel that their characters are given reasonable chances for success. That includes for captured characters to escape or be rescued.
The characters were not captured. They were left behind. Some might say, "left for dead."

What one player considers reasonable will almost certainly be a bit different from the next - and ALL will be somewhat different from what the DM feels is reasonable. Open, frequent communication with players is the best way to prevent it from ever being a problem. And no, simply telling them, "Be careful - your PC's REALLY might die in THIS dungeon," is not enough if a player FEELS like he's gotten the shaft (even if he's wrong).

Nobody is saying captured PC's must never be killed. We're saying, "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD." The fact that the player is upset rather indicates that the player and DM are NOT on the same page here.
I can't argue with any of that. As my wife is so fond of saying, "Perception IS Reality." And while I may have been technically correct in the rules interpretation, I misplayed the social interaction part of it. :(

Part of the problem is how quickly it happened. After dropping through the floor, it was the next round that the BBEG made her split decision. She would've made the CdG on one of the unconscious characters before I would've thought to include the Sense Motive check. Unfortunately, it didn't even occur to me what she would do when she saw the traitor until it happened. :( And all of a sudden, it was obvious what she would do.

You can bet I will be more careful in the future. In fact, I'm usually pretty careful in general. I had typed in a story here about another player spat, but you don't want to read about that, so I've removed it. :)
 

irdeggman

First Post
Looking at where the BBEG had to go (not made clear at the beginning of the thread)

{So often we as "viewers" don't have sufficient information at the beginning to make adequate assessments of the situation that we are asked to}

it would appears as if the handling of CDG of the helpless PC was done correctly.

Splitting up of parties almost always leads to trouble (and yet it is constantly being done), leaving a fellow PC behind and helpless without some means of "protection" is being poor stewards and caretakers. If my PC was in that situation I would take it personally that my "friends" left me to die. Something as simple as a 1st level alarm spell comes to mind.

As "tatorhead" says "You can't cure stupid".

IIRC you also said that the PC that was helpless and left behind was run by a different player when the situation came up that caused him to be in that situation. Was the player there when the battle occured that resulted in his PC's death? That becomes just cruel and unusual punishment to force him to "watch" the results of his fellow players' less than adequate support.

The one thing coming out of this is that maybe, just maybe, the players will learn something about covering their back sides and leaving people behind.
 

sirwmholder

First Post
moritheil said:
Yeah, the thing is, I would not have killed the character and told them afterwards...
Up to this point I agree whole heartedly... but I see combat taking place a bit differently.

For instance... it's the BBEG's turn... standard action cast Ethereal... player uses Spellcraft... BBEG then takes his movement through the floor. PC Caster's turn... cast See Invisible... BBEG is no where to be seen. If anyone used a sense motive check they would get the impression the BBEG is fleeing. Next round, BBEG sees unconscious pair a level down and dismisses Ethereal spell. At this point anyone that can see and uses sense motive on BBEG would get the idea that he is going to commit imminent violence. I fail to see how the party could be aware of his actions before he is... think of it as a crime of opportunity instead of premeditation.

William Holder
 

azhrei_fje

First Post
There was actually one more free action:
sirwmholder said:
For instance... it's the BBEG's turn... Concentration check to avoid AoO, then standard action cast Ethereal... player uses Spellcraft... BBEG then takes his movement through the floor. PC Caster's turn... cast See Invisible... BBEG is no where to be seen. If anyone used a sense motive check they would get the impression the BBEG is fleeing. Next round, BBEG sees unconscious pair a level down and dismisses Ethereal spell. At this point anyone that can see and uses sense motive on BBEG would get the idea that he is going to commit imminent violence. I fail to see how the party could be aware of his actions before he is... think of it as a crime of opportunity instead of premeditation.
Yes, that's how it happened. Had any of the PCs been near their helpless friends and used Sense Motive, it would've been obvious. In fact, if they had even THOUGHT about the fact that they'd left a cult traitor helpless on the floor below, it probably would've been a given that the BBEG would stop. I mean, heck -- that's what BBEG's DO!

So I guess that means that even if I had given the party members a Sense Motive check, it still wouldn't have revealed anything at the time the BBEG went ethereal. :\ Which means while I think it would've been a good idea to use SM, it would've been even more misleading than doing nothing, since the PCs would've thought that the BBEG was going to flee and keep on fleeing. :(

I appreciate all of your opinions, folks. I have learned that I did do a few things wrong, such as: involving the players in deciding when combat ended (I should have just ruled it myself and not asked them), and perhaps I erred in using save-or-die spells against the PCs. In future campaigns, I may review the save-or-die spells and house rule that they don't exist. For the good guys or the bad guys. But I can decide that later.

Okay, now the last question. I seem to be lacking some players as fallout over this. Anyone live in the Tampa area and want to play through about 6 months of RttToEE? As you've read by now, I have some lenient house rules, but PCs can die. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. (I think this is actually the 3rd death for the rogue -- she was one of the helpless PCs laying on the floor. And one cleric has been dead twice as well.)
 

eamon

Explorer
Having read the discussion I agree in general with the sentiment that communication is key, and that if people feel powerless you should maybe slow-down out of game and remind them of their options - and certainly provide some relief so the game has ups as well as downs. This doesn't mean you should excuse the party from all negatives, rather the opposite (and I'm not sure I would allow raise dead so easily, you risk turning it into a "video game", where the players don't care about their characters since it can be repaired anyhow.) But it does mean that if the players are often stretched, they should sometimes be vindicated bigtime - a realistic but terrible mistake on the part of the BBEG, which can be jumped on by the PC's, that kind of thing. Ideally, the BBEG is not really less prone to mistakes than the PC's. Any such differences indicate that the BBEG is more aware of his surroundings, which might just be because he's being played by the person who defines the surroundings.

Specifically though:
azhrei_fje said:
1A. Blade barrier along a grid line or through a grid square?
My vote is that either is fine and it's up to you, but the difference should not be relevant - the grid is just an ingame abstraction, and not a "real" thing in-game. Someone suggested that the barrier redefines the grid, and that's probably too much work, but an interesting concept. I'd wing it, allowing it both to be 0 ft wide for movement/reach purposes, and to be in a square for initial purposes (since that only makes sense).
1B. Reaching through a blade barrier automatically inflicts damage. True or False.
Attacks through a blade barrier merely have cover. If a character wishes to touch something on the other side, require a touch attack. If a character wishes to grasp something and retrieve it, use common sense and (hefty) circumstance modifiers. A character might trigger a lever through a blade barrier with only limited touch-attack penalties (i.e. almost always succeeding), but fail to pick up a sword on the other side. A tumble check or something similar might be a good idea for difficult tasks, also since it makes players less liable to complain when they fail. You can point out that it's a difficult tumble/dex check to pick up the heavy greatsword, but that they can opt to risk damage instead of failure to pick up the item (i.e. take the reflex save as if for movement instead of risking failure). This way, you place the burden of the consequences on the player, always a good idea.
1C. Making the Reflex save requires the creature to move only into an unoccupied square (true or false). Or they can squeeze into an ally's square (true or false). Or they can bull rush an opponent and take their square (true or false).
True - but a bit of limited common sense won't kill you here. Sure, allow a bull rush, but make sure you amply describe what a rush job it is, and impose a heft penalty, and if the bull rush fails... the creature falls prone in the blade barrier, not a good idea.

I mean, imagine an ancient dragon swerving aside from an aerial blade barrier - could it push away a gull? If so, where's the line? I'd say, don't bother defining the line, just make a d20 check using the "impossible is just a +20 modifier" thought (not to be taken too seriously...). Maybe a -10 penalty is OK. If you're worried about abuse, make it -20, and have the movement count against next turns movement. You're not going to break the game so long as you make sure disadvantageous situations are... disadvantageous - so that means, don't allow a bull rush that's not seriously nerfed.

2. A blinded creature must make a Listen check to pinpoint an opponent. The DC is 0? 20? Other?
That's situational, but a DC 20 base sounds like a good starting point. Feel free to modify with circumstance modifiers, like, a +5 for being distracted, and maybe modifiers depending on the creature and it's activities.
3. Does wall of force block sound and/or vision? (It's invisible, so it seems unlikely to block vision. :))

A wall of force does not block vision and by extension, does not block purely visual effects. It's not specified whether it blocks sounds, so that's campaign dependent. You could imagine a star-trek like forcefield which is completely permeable to sound, or you could imagine a normal wall-like attenuation, all the way up to complete sound blocking. My feeling is that if the spell were intended to block sounds very strongly, it would say so, so a mild attenuation should be the most impact it has. Maybe it muffles sounds a little, but has no game mechanical impact, or just a small listen DC impact? I'd make it less attenuation than a normal wall, but, as long as you're consistent, you could perfectly well do otherwise. Be aware that complete sound blocking has a bunch of side-effects in some cases, so you might be causing ripple effects here. It's safer, balance-wise, not to speak in absolutes, but just to make it a listen DC modifier, at most.

4. How does control winds interact with the fog spells, specifically acid fog?
No idea, but a reasonable amount of control is believable. I would also not allow shaping, but maybe moving. You could make it a little random; roll a d10 to determine where it goes relative to where you want it to go (1-9 in a numpad like arrangement, 10 disperses). It's pretty cool to use wind to control effects, so you might allow that, but make it a real character choice then, a one-off which for instance requires exceptionally high ranks in profession(sailor) for good insight into wind and wind patterns along with ranks in knowledge(nature) and spellcraft perhaps. Ideally, if you allow it, but it goes beyond the spell description, choose a mechanic which is specific and odd enough that it's an exceptional unique thing, which can't be abused by any old creature, so that your game-world remains believable despite other casters not using such an advantageous technique, and so that your PC's don't break the balance to heavily.
5. Should I have forced the party to remain in "combat" mode?
No more than usual. Wait until they say what they do. Then remind them what they did. Make sure it's their choice. Perhaps allow a listen check to hear the gurgling of a cut throat right through the floor (insert gruesome description), so they connect the dots of the consequences of their actions.

I think you ruled pretty fine, and that any improvement you can make should more be on the communication aspect than the ruling aspect. Also, if your players truly don't like this kind of stuff, then try to reconsider your campaign design in such a way that you don't force em into these kind of situations rather than ruling them differently. It's definitely possible to tame a campaign a little, and that's often more believable than making PC-friendly rulings which might shatter suspension of disbelief. You can tame it down a little by letting them discover more hints of what's to come, and thus be better prepared. You can help them by granting them by giving em things like portable holes with bottles of air to transport incapacitated allies in. You can give em staff's of life. You can choose Lair styles which focus more on preventing entry than on inducing life threatening party-splits - so that if things do go hay-wire, they can retreat.
 

eamon

Explorer
By the way, it's not entirely clear to me, but I assume the forcecage wasn't trapping the BBEG? An ethereal creature cannot escape a forcecage.
 

roguerouge

First Post
azhrei_fje said:
Okay, now the last question. I seem to be lacking some players as fallout over this. Anyone live in the Tampa area and want to play through about 6 months of RttToEE? As you've read by now, I have some lenient house rules, but PCs can die. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. (I think this is actually the 3rd death for the rogue -- she was one of the helpless PCs laying on the floor. And one cleric has been dead twice as well.)

Okay, now I want the player's viewpoints. I think having their side of the story would help, and it might help them feel "heard" if they were to post their version of the events here.

'Cause clearly if you're leaving a game over this, you don't feel like the DM is hearing you.
 

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