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D&D 5E Balancing Full Casters with Non-Casters

Zardnaar

Legend
Yes, this is really the issue. 5E is balanced around having a bunch of encounters in a day. If the PCs don't generally face more than a couple encounters (combat or non-combat) between long rests, it skews things in favor of PCs with "long rest" abilities and away from those with "short rest" abilities. Since casters are the primary "long rest" classes, they come out on top.

Our group decided to try the "longer rests" approach: A short rest is 8 hours' sleep, and a long rest is 3 days in a safe location. It has done wonders to shift the balance between long-rest and short-rest classes. Warlock is suddenly a very appealing class.

Unfortunately that design decision is often hard to pull off IRL as its often easy to have 1 day= 1 session for example if you have a lot of encounters.

If you are playing 3-4 hours sessions its often hard to fit in that many encounters. Sure you can split the adventuring day over multiple sessions but then real life interferes, next week sessions turns into next month sessions, characters sheets go AWOL, people have to keep track of spells and hit points and remember where to pick up from the last session which maybe be last week or a couple of months ago.

3E may have had it better in regards to 4 encounters for an adventuring day or even AD&Ds no assumption as if you have 1 encounter you can just use a stronger monster or several but that doesn't work in 5E very well (weak monsters+ abundant PC resources).
 

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77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
A wizard can only cast Invisibility however many times they’re memorized it, but a rogue can roll for Stealth all day long.
Another aside -- technically, casting invisibility only makes you invisible, not hidden. Anyone watching you when you cast it still knows exactly where you are and can attack you with disadvantage. You need to actually take the Hide action in order to benefit from being hidden.
 

I wouldn't worry too much. In 5e, high level fighters, barbarians, and rogues will still wreck the bad guys far more often than wizards and druids.
Give it a try and see how it works with your table and your players and your party. If something starts being an issue you can adjust for that instance rather than trying to fix based on hypotheticals.
 

Phion

Explorer
I don't see how a wall of force stops a fight. Maybe delays it for 15 minutes. That can be a nice head start to run away I guess. Running away is neither winning nor successfully bypassing the encounter so....

Yeah, smart play wins the day, no argument there. But that's where the multiple encounters comes into play. Alright, your Wall of Force stopped Squad of Orcs A...what are you going to for Squads B through F?
I have contained all creatures in a room and casually walked up to the item/objective and casually walked out without losing any life with it. Squads B and F you say? Well I probably just teleport out of there.
 

g4m3kn1ght

First Post
This is absolutely true. Has three different resource recover mechanics - at-will, short-rest, and long-rest. It si balance around 6-8 meaningful encounters per long-rest, divided into thirds by short rests.

I had neglected to take the number of encounters per day into account. Working around that or using the spells recharge after X number of encounters approach might help. To be honest I can't think of any time I designed an individual adventure based on number of encounters; I usually just do what make sense in narrative. Also, what kind of session length do you do for 6-8 encounters per day? It seems like you would have to track spell slots between sessions or do 8-12 hour marathon games. We are lucky if we get in 4 hours for a session anymore (family obligations and such) and a lot that is spent on general hanging out and tomfoolery.
 

g4m3kn1ght

First Post
Looking at some of the replies, and am thinking of adding additional rechargeable resource cost to casting spells. The first thing that comes to mind is having casters spend a HD or 2 or 3 to cast 4th level spells and up. Exhaustion levels could be another option in this vein. Maybe this would only apply to certain spells at each level.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I have contained all creatures in a room and casually walked up to the item/objective and casually walked out without losing any life with it. Squads B and F you say? Well I probably just teleport out of there.

Congratulations, you looted the wrong item and left the dungeon early thinking yourself the victor. The Orcs have reinforced their dungeon, relocated the valuables within it and you remain unpaid by your benefactor.

You don't play a lot of dungeons do you?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Looking at some of the replies, and am thinking of adding additional rechargeable resource cost to casting spells. The first thing that comes to mind is having casters spend a HD or 2 or 3 to cast 4th level spells and up. Exhaustion levels could be another option in this vein. Maybe this would only apply to certain spells at each level.

exhausation would have made a cool system for spell casting.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I had neglected to take the number of encounters per day into account. Working around that or using the spells recharge after X number of encounters approach might help. To be honest I can't think of any time I designed an individual adventure based on number of encounters; I usually just do what make sense in narrative. Also, what kind of session length do you do for 6-8 encounters per day? It seems like you would have to track spell slots between sessions or do 8-12 hour marathon games. We are lucky if we get in 4 hours for a session anymore (family obligations and such) and a lot that is spent on general hanging out and tomfoolery.

i run typically 3 hour sessions weekly and yes absolutely the players are required - as am i - to record things between sessions for the next session. it is just simply unrealistic to have sessions always end in a long rest everybody back to full.

then again, we have always had that, ever since 1e and beyond. its nothing new. AFAIK 1e did not have any "if session stops mid-event you all get everything back" rules yet it did have spells per day, uses per day and so on.

All 5e has done is really shifted things away from "per day" to the "rests" between them.

But a key thing to keep in mind as GM is not that 6-8 is magical. its an example of what the system was tuned around.

The real key is that you should often enough create a series of encounters that challenge the party and are spearated by short rests and about half as often that are separated by long rests.

it could be as simple as "big fight - short rest - big fight -short rest - bigger fight - long rest... three enouncters one per session over 3 weeks with a little bit of non-challenge in between.

but the main thing as Gm is to recognize that the challenge for a party right after a long rest fully charged and who can afford to just go full out - need to be higher than what the basic CR would produce because that Cr is based on wearing down.

Consider this - 5th warlocks get two spells per short rest at third level slots- which means six castings over the Sr-Sr-LR encounters. A similar wizard has 4-3-2 which means more spells overall but only two at third - spread throughout the three encounters. but... the sorc can dump all 9 spells in one encounter if they want.

So if you run games where the sorc and wiz are staring at three encounters split by short rests before a long rest OR a game where its mostly one encounter then long rest - those will play very differently.

yes i know both classes have other stuff so the balance is not limited to just this aspect, but it illustrates the point.

In my game, sometimes it is ONE BIG and out, sometimes it is the two-shorts to a long, sometimes it is many shorts befor a long, sometimes the big bad fight is first and then they have extremely tired and wounded but still have objectives against lesser opposition etc etc etc... the key in my experience is mixing it up **with intent in design** and to be very aware of the PCs involved and working to see balance in play.

power/value/balance is at the intersection of NEED and CAPABILITY so you know their capabilities and so if you want balance you have to provide the right needs.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I find the root of a lot of issues with high level play is not understanding the scope.

In Tier 3 (11-16) the party should be facing threats to entire planes.

In Tier 4 (17-20) they should be facing threats to the entire multiverse.

Beings that can threaten planes aren't going to wait around for the PCs to rest.
 

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