Balancing New Classes

[teichman]

I want to make an arcane defender but I am having trouble trying to figure out how 4E balances classes. In past editions, you would give a new class perhaps versatility like a wizard in exchange for lower hp and ac, but in 4E, I am not sure that is how the designers balanced it with the idea of maintaining the sweet spot across levels now. So, my question is if I want to make an arcane defender that is balanced with the martial (fighter) and divine (paladin) do I try to match damage output and other utilities through powers and just change the flavor of the arcane defender? Or, are there other ways of balancing new classes with the same role but different power source?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Stalker0]

What I would do is take a look at how the core classes differ within the same role.

For example, the rogue, ranger, and warlock are all strikers, yet they aren't the same. The rogue has the most damage, the ranger lots of movement and other abilities, and the warlock is the least damaging striker but also has more controllerish things he does.

Looking at defenders, the paladin is the "defender's defender" with the biggest AC and defenses and is very good at sticking one creature to him. But the fighter has more offensive powers in nature and is good at holding groups.

So basically take the core of the defender role, and then slide it a bit towards one way or teh other. Do you want your class to be a bit more...leaderish? Strikerish? Controllerish? Once you decide on how you want the class to look, take away slightly from teh core defender model and then shift it a bit more in the direction you want to go.

 

[pyrogod]

I generally compare every power and ability level by level with similar classes. So, I compare my At-Wills for a Striker with the Rogue, Ranger, and Warlock At-wills (and on occasion the other classes as well).

In terms of class design I look for the following (not in order of importance):
1. Does the class accurately reflect the designed role (is the defender good at absorbing damage and protecting others)?
2. Does the class have a consistent flavor?
3. Does the class have consistent and unique mechanics? If the Ice Witch gets a renamed Stinking Cloud, renamed Fireball, renamed etc, you could trivially finish that project in a few paragraphs. This isn't to say you cannot reflavor any abilities. Sometimes an existing power perfectly captures the mechanic you want and just needs a reflavor (see my Necromancer's Weaken Legs hex, which is 90% similar mechanically to Ray of Frost).
4. Does the class have approximately the same combat viability as other classes?
5. Does the class have the same out of combat viability?

So, when designed an Arcane Defender, you really should attempt to make a class that is equally as good as a Paladin or Fighter, but plays radically different and has a fresh flavor. Considering you are moving from Martial to Arcane with the powerset, I think at least the latter part should be fairly easy.

To give another example of my thinking, I am designing a Striker called the Black Blooded. The general concept of this class, among others, is that it very heavily interacts with the bloodied mechanic. I gave it an ability similar to every other striker for once per round bonus damage (Sneak Attack, Curse, Quarry) against a bloodied target. To balance it, I used the rogue's damage template as opposed to the Ranger or Warlock's because it is not voluntary or easy to apply like Quarry or Curse are.

I haven't completed the full class, but I do strongly believe this mechanic will work, as it has been balanced against existing mechanics, and yet has different metagame implications (a rogue wants to attack a target it has combat advantage is, so positioning and stealth is key. A Black Blooded wants to attack weakened opponents, so they will attempt to manuveur towards powerful but highly damaged opponents and eviscerate them).

 

[Tonester]

After looking at the Swordmage preview, don't worry about balance - it isn't like WoTC cared about it when designing that class

 

[teichman]

One of my primary issues with the idea of an arcane defender is balancing the traditional light or no armor arcane class with a heavily armored defender class when looking at the Paladin and Fighter. Would I forgo the tradition and allow an arcane defender access to heavy armor, or do I look for a flavorful alternative in giving the class the ability to have the equal of heavy armor only in a spell arcane way instead to balance with the other defender classes. Anyways thanks for the help. I have a feeling I am just so used to looking at balancing the old classes with the traditional rogue, fighter, wizard and cleric setup rather than this new defender, controller, striker and leader setup. It seems like this is a major paradigm shift I am struggling with.

 

[pyrogod]

One of my primary issues with the idea of an arcane defender is balancing the traditional light or no armor arcane class with a heavily armored defender class when looking at the Paladin and Fighter. Would I forgo the tradition and allow an arcane defender access to heavy armor, or do I look for a flavorful alternative in giving the class the ability to have the equal of heavy armor only in a spell arcane way instead to balance with the other defender classes. Anyways thanks for the help. I have a feeling I am just so used to looking at balancing the old classes with the traditional rogue, fighter, wizard and cleric setup rather than this new defender, controller, striker and leader setup. It seems like this is a major paradigm shift I am struggling with.

I would give them something besides armor to use for defense. It will help distinguish the class.

To further discuss the idea, as I see it, a defender has three roles:
- Protect allies from attacks
- Have high HP and defenses to mitigate damage
- Do good, but not great, damage

The Arcane powerset to me suggests use of magic, perhaps at range, including elemental attacks.

To examine the fighter (my favorite defender), the fighter has the following to help in its role:
-Combat challenge: This is huge. The ability to generate marks and to make special OA-like attacks that no other class can is the most pivotal role of the fighter.
- Combat superiority: The ability to stop enemies from moving with an attack is very good at shielding allies.
- Shield usage: This is quite common with many fighter builds, and provides for increased defense.
- High hit points / surges.
- Abilities like Tide of Iron and Covering Attack

So, let's brainstorm a class called the Magus (Arcane Defender), which will be totally different than a fighter.
We'll have hit points and surges equal to a fighter. The Magus will use a staff, but will be awesome with it, instead of Wizards, who are merely OK.

The main defense ability will be the following:

Orb of Protection:
You may put an orb of protection on an ally (note that ally does NOT include yourself) within 10 squares as a minor action. That ally gets +1 to all defenses. If the ally takes damage, you take the damage instead, less 1 and the orb is removed. You may only place one orb at a time.
(Note: We may expand this with a paragon feat to allow two orbs perhaps?)

We'll give the magus some defense ability to their defense to be determined later.

We can also give them the following At-Wills:

Taunting Bolt
You fire a bolt of magical energy at a faraway enemy and then dare them to attack you.
At-Will * Arcane, Implement
Standard, Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage. The target is marked until the end of your next turn.

Force Grasp
You conjure up a magical force to wrench an enemy closer to you.
At-Will * Arcane, Implement
Standard, Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. ???
Hit: 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage. You may pull the target one square.

Those are just some idea on how I would design an arcane defender class. My goal in class design is always to fulfill the role of the class (Defender, controller, striker, or leader) while also making it totally unique from other classes of that type.

As to the balance of this class, my general guideline would be to make it better at defending from a range, but perhaps slightly more vulnerable than a fighter and not as effective at defending from multiple targets (After all, a fighter can theoretically have many marks up, and does not need to hit to mark).

My recommendation would be to do through level three or so for abilities and then to assess balance. Then go ahead and do the rest. I tend to immediately brainstorm a general idea for paragon paths, but leave the mechanics for after the 1-30 for the actual class (for example with the necromancer I said I want a hex user, an undead user, and a life stealing paragon path, and that's how I eventually came up with my final paths).

 

[Najo]

I think it is possible with 4e to actually do a bit more in the realm of putting into a class what you want it to have. If you want heavy armor on an arcane defender type class, then just find other ways to balance the character.

for example:

1. The offensive capability of the class could be limited to short range and single targets, with very few burst (if any) and if there is one or two, they are close bursts at that.

2. The class has no healing (leader) abilities.

3. The class's mark, how effective is it? The paladin is one to look at as it forces the target to come to him and for the paladin to engage. The fighter's mark is more open.

4. Are the power's reliable like the fighter's?

5. How much do the powers scale, how many 1 [W] vs. 2[W] powers are there for the arcane defender's weapons.

6. armor type limit? Does the class have medium armor and then sigils that add to armor class?

Something else to keep in mind, the sweet spot in 4e is preserved through all levels because they made all of the base structure in the math linear and comparative and then placed the same ranges of bonuses from the classes on to them. For example, the fighter and the wizard both get a bonus to attack's equal to half their levels. But the fighter adds hits proficency bonus, strength modifier and feat bonuses to his attack roll. This makes him good with weapons and hitting well and hard with in melee. The wizard remains poor in this area, as he doesn't have the same bonuses here. But, the wizard has a high intelligence and he gets bonsues to using his spells from implements, feats and other wizard benefits in the game. The end result is the wizard is as good at using his spells as the fighter is using his sword.

The two classes are still using the same math, but they are not any where similiar to each other in what they can do. Also, because the wizard is ranged, has poor AC, uses alot of area spells and has fewer hitpoints. He needs to keep minions and the close combat monsters off him and stay away from the fights. The fighter with his high AC, good hit points and high level of melee abilities can wade into the middle of a fight and dish it out while taking it.

This is how class balance in D&D 4e works. Very brilliant of the designers to retool the math and it is one of the main reasons 4e had to happen and on a side note, why 4e is superior to 3.5 in game play, its game system and play experience.

Also, keep in mind, because the game system is running on tigher controlled math tables, a +2 bonus is much better in 4e than in 3.x. Some people who do not like 4e complain about some of the math elements (thinking that 3.x math is fine), and they are flat out wrong. 4e's bonus system is retooled to, and less bonuses goes further in it as there is no scaling problems with high level.