Barbarian Whirling Frenzy Variant

[pbd]

Is the Barbarian rage variant Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana balanced with respect to normal rage?

I am playing a dwarf half-dragon barbarian fighter (spiked chain weilder) in an upcoming compaing and I am thinking of askind the DM is I can use this, but I don't want to if it is overpowered.

Thanks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think the whirling frenzy is better than a normal rage because a stackable bonus to AC is better than Con points. The Fort save is already good, so the Fort save booster for the Barbarian is largely meaningless. The Reflex save boost is thus even better. Plus, there's no downside like in normal rage (-2 penalty to AC), unless you say that he still gets that due to the text "in all other ways." Add in the potential flurry-like attack and I think it's over the top.

 

[Cabral]

You still get winded after the rage and because of lack of a Con boost, the rage is two rounds shorter. Also, normal rage grants a bonus to Will saves.

 

[Ghoti]

I think the whirling frenzy is better than a normal rage because a stackable bonus to AC is better than Con points. The Fort save is already good, so the Fort save booster for the Barbarian is largely meaningless. The Reflex save boost is thus even better. Plus, there's no downside like in normal rage (-2 penalty to AC), unless you say that he still gets that due to the text "in all other ways." Add in the potential flurry-like attack and I think it's over the top.

I do not think the -2 penalty to AC is there for the Whirling Frenzy as it grants a +2 to AC. So that would be a wash.

Also you do get a downside. As Cabral stated it does not last as long as the standard Rage, you also get a -2 to attacks.

 

[Jon Potter]

I do not think the -2 penalty to AC is there for the Whirling Frenzy as it grants a +2 to AC. So that would be a wash.

Also you do get a downside. As Cabral stated it does not last as long as the standard Rage, you also get a -2 to attacks.

But the -2 to attacks is also a wash with the +4 bonus to Strength.

No getting around the number of rounds issue, though.

 

[farscapesg1]

Personally, I think it is pretty balanced compared to the standard Rage ability.

Rage gives;
+4 Str and +4 Con
+2 Will save
-2 Penalty to AC

The +4 Con increases the Barbarian's Fort save and gives an extra 2 HP per level

Whirling Frenzy gives;
+4 Strength
+2 AC
+2 Reflex Save
1 extra attack

Without the extra CON, Whirling frenzy will last 2 rounds less than the standard Rage.

The +2 AC, in my opinion, pretty much balances out with the +2 HP per level.

I will admit that the +2 Reflex save is a little strong considering it is a Dodge bonus, which stacks wth everything, including other Dodge bonuses. The +2 Will for standard Rage is a morale bonus, which does not stack with other morale bonuses.

The extra attack is offset by the -2 penalty to all attack rolls for the round. Since this applies to all attack rolls, it nullifies the attack bonus from the increased strength

In the end, it might be just a tad bit better than standard rage, but not enough that I would consider it broken.

 

[Cabral]

you get -2 to attacks if you choose to make an extra attack, as I recall. if you do, you get -2 to attacks but +2 from the strength for a net +0 which is still two less than normal rage. Also, I believe the same restrictions on feats apply. Also the lack of a Con bonus when raging means 2 fewer HPs per level while raging.

The evasion ability you get at level 14 isn't as great as it first appears because: 1) it only works when raging, 2) Barbarians get poor reflex saves. A level 14 barbarian's reflex save is +4, +2 if whirling, +Dex bonus. A standard 14th level barbarian has the same reflex save except for the whirling bonus, but has a will save of +4, +4 indomitable will, +2 if raging + wisdom.

What it boils down to is a Whirling Barbarian is better against numerous foes with low ACs while the standard barbarian is better versus fewer foes with higher ACs and who deal more damage.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Keep in mind that the bonus to AC is a dodge bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses and applies to touch attacks. In terms of bonuses, especially combined with a barbarian's uncanny dodge, it's pretty much the best out there. A +2 bonus to AC against all attacks is much better than +2 hp/HD. I've seen other number-crunchers prove this, but if you don't believe me, crunch the numbers yourself or have Nail do it. Btw, I think this disparity gets even worse at higher levels with +3 and +4.

The shorter duration is an issue I hadn't consider initially. Still, it doesn't make it balanced.

The extra attack is offset by the -2 penalty to all attack rolls for the round. Since this applies to all attack rolls, it nullifies the attack bonus from the increased strength

The extra attack is NOT offset by the -2 penalty, and I'll tell you why. Consider this ability to be essentially an improved Flurry of Blows. It allows you to do a flurry of blows without any of the restrictions (though the penalty doesn't reduce at higher levels). Indeed, a monk/barbarian could combine them with a flurriable weapon. The frenzy doesn't even require a full round attack. The barbarian could charge someone and make two attacks, with the charge bonus directly offsetting the -2!

The only downside to this, now that I think of it, is the loss of indomitable will. That's much better than evasion IMO.

 

[Brain]

Is the Barbarian rage variant Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana balanced with respect to normal rage?

I am playing a dwarf half-dragon barbarian fighter (spiked chain weilder) in an upcoming compaing and I am thinking of askind the DM is I can use this, but I don't want to if it is overpowered.

Thanks.

I think it is overpowered compared to normal rage. In my opinion, if you're already making a dwarf half-dragon barbarian fighter (spiked chain weilder) then you aren't exactly going to be balanced with a normal character anyways.

 

[Cabral]

I think I'm going to step out of this thread, not for heated emotions or offensiveness, just because I disagree and don't forsee that changing

So I'll step out and say, pbd, I consider whirling frenzy barbarian to be balanced.
Infiniti2000 considers it to be unbalanced, or at the very least better than normal rage.
I suggest you take the variant to your DM, say that you're interested in the variant and ask if he thinks it is balanced.

Also, because of the improved rage at level 11, my calaculations for a 14th level barabarian saves were incorrect.
Whirling Barbarian
Fortitude +9, +Con
Reflex +4, +3 if whirling, +Dex
Will +4 + Wisdom
Standard Barbarian
Fortitude +9, +Con (which increases when raging)
Reflex +4 + Dex
Will +4, +4 Indomitable will, +3 if raging + wisdom

Also, because of the lack of Con bonus, the rage lasts 2 rounds less normally and the whirler has 2 fewer hp/level, 3 rounds less and 3 fewer hp/level at level 11 (when the Con bonus would become +6) and 4 rounds less and 4 fewer hp/level at level 20 (when the Con bonus would become +8)

If your DM does not think the variant is balanced but you still want a similar feel, consider the standard barbarian with the Whirlwind attack feat chain.