• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Bard Redux

Archimago

First Post
Firstly my preamble:

- I am committed to the camp that the PHB bard is too weak in rollplaying matters.
- I am cognizant that the bard is an interesting class to roleplay, but uphold that roleplaying is exclusive from the mechanic components of a class, and that roleplaying is based on the person not on rules, so that rule changes, generally and specifically the ones I will present, have no bearing on roleplaying.
- I am looking for mechanical criticism, posts that claim I am rollplaying and not roleplaying will be ignored (btw, bolding those two concepts, as if often done by those who invoke them, is incredibly irritating and condescending, as if I can't tell the difference).
- if your main grievance is with the semi-spontaneous system, I've started other threads about it pros/cons, so don't worry too much about it, my world will make it more difficult to learn new spells to compensate).

Now that that's out of the way a quick summary of my changes:

Bard
As PHB except…
6+int skill points, same skill list.
Semi-Spontaneous Casting – Memorize one spell for every spell slot (spells must be of equal or lesser level than slot); cast spontaneously from that more limited group; learn spells as Wizard does in PHB; metamagic as Wizard.
Bardic Knowledge – Add (Bard Level/2) to all knowledge checks
Bardic Casting – Bards subtract 20% casting failure because their casting relies more on sound than somatics. Every bard spell has a verbal component, this overrides the spells entry. Bards are arcane casters (and thus use the semi-spontaneous casting technique). Bards know 2+INT Modifier cantrips to at level one, and then gain 2 extra spells every level thereafter. Bards may only select spells of spell levels they can cast. Bards can also learn new spells as wizards do, but the dynamic is a bit harder (this is balanced by my homebrew not offering too much opportunities/making it more difficult to learn new spells; this is tied into balancing the semi-spontaneous casting)
Bardic Music Changes/Clarifications – Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, and Inspire Greatness can all affect the bard who sings them
Bardic Spell Changes – Strike Mage Armour (lvl 1 conjuration) from spell list, add Shield (lvl 1 abjuration) and add True Strike (lvl 1 divination).
Bardic Ability – Gain a Bardic Ability at levels 5, 10, 15, 20; Select from: Evasion, Extra Feat*, Improved Bardic Knowledge, Magical Traps, Sneak Attack +1d6*, Uncanny Dodge*. * - may be selected multiple times. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, Magical Traps, all as Rogue abilities of the same name. Improved Bardic Knowledge changes Bardic Knowledge formula to Add Bard Levels to all knowledge checks.

Mostly, I'm perfectly happy with my changes, the main one I'm questioning is the Bardic abilities, are they too strong? are there others I could add to the list? should I change levels at which they are gained?

Thank you for assistance and non-role/rollplay haggling. :D
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Crothian

First Post
Archimago said:

As PHB except…
6+int skill points, same skill list.
Semi-Spontaneous Casting – Memorize one spell for every spell slot (spells must be of equal or lesser level than slot); cast spontaneously from that more limited group; learn spells as Wizard does in PHB; metamagic as Wizard.
Bardic Knowledge – Add (Bard Level/2) to all knowledge checks
Bardic Casting – Bards subtract 20% casting failure because their casting relies more on sound than somatics. Every bard spell has a verbal component, this overrides the spells entry. Bards are arcane casters (and thus use the semi-spontaneous casting technique). Bards know 2+INT Modifier cantrips to at level one, and then gain 2 extra spells every level thereafter. Bards may only select spells of spell levels they can cast. Bards can also learn new spells as wizards do, but the dynamic is a bit harder (this is balanced by my homebrew not offering too much opportunities/making it more difficult to learn new spells; this is tied into balancing the semi-spontaneous casting)
Bardic Music Changes/Clarifications – Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, and Inspire Greatness can all affect the bard who sings them
Bardic Spell Changes – Strike Mage Armour (lvl 1 conjuration) from spell list, add Shield (lvl 1 abjuration) and add True Strike (lvl 1 divination).
Bardic Ability – Gain a Bardic Ability at levels 5, 10, 15, 20; Select from: Evasion, Extra Feat*, Improved Bardic Knowledge, Magical Traps, Sneak Attack +1d6*, Uncanny Dodge*. * - may be selected multiple times. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, Magical Traps, all as Rogue abilities of the same name. Improved Bardic Knowledge changes Bardic Knowledge formula to Add Bard Levels to all knowledge checks.

First off I agree that Bard is more of a Role playing class, and I understand your wanting to improve the rollplaying. To help out in combat as the Bard I multi classed into the Lasher.

The six skill points is something the WotC should just make official errrata.

Are their spells still based off of Charisma? I was thinking it'd be cool to have bonus spells based off of Intelligence but DCs based off of Charisma.

I think bardic knowledge is to strong. Knowledge skills deal withg to many specifics and book smarts for the Bard. Where the PHB Bardic knowledge deals more with what can be learned through stories and talking to general people.

The special abilities. I don't think evasion fits that well and I think their Bonus feat should be limited to certain feats.

Overall, it doesn't seem too bad of a change. Personally, I'm happy twith the Bard I'm playing which is the PHB version only with six skill points a level instead of four.
 

Archimago

First Post
Thanks for the reply Crothian, now to somethings I'd like to comment on...

Are their spells still based off of Charisma? I was thinking it'd be cool to have bonus spells based off of Intelligence but DCs based off of Charisma.

I thought of something like this too. It seems to me that Bards should rely on both intelligence and charisma, most really witty and clever people - which is a behavioural characteristic often attributed to the bard - often aren't just charismatic.

The special abilities. I don't think evasion fits that well and I think their Bonus feat should be limited to certain feats.

I thought of this too. I will strike evasion, better to let the rogue be unique on that one, at least barbs already have uncanny dodge. I was thinking to limit the bonus feats too, but what themes to use as a guide to making the list? I was thinking maybe something along the lines of the bladesinger bonus feat list (ie. dodge, combat reflexes, other dex related feats, weapon finesse, weapon profs, and archery feats, and skill related feats, like skill focus)
 

Duganson

First Post
Archimago,
First I have to give you respect for taking on the task that you set out to do here, it might get a little crazy. Second I have some ideas for you but it is SUPER late and I gotta go to beddy by... teehee.
I'll post within the next couple of days to try and help, until then, have fun!

Thysl in Silver
 

Duganson

First Post
Archimago,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you, mid-term week for me!

So the first bit of advice to you is to make it so that Bards gain Bardic Music Abilities as they gain Levels and Perform Ranks. This makes that God awful Power Tree extinct and gives you a good excuse to add some nice powers to someone who actually takes the class. Also it gives you a great excuse to make his Music affect him also.

Is Bardic Knowledge +1/ 2 Bard levels +Int Modifier? If so then it might be too powerful (Well there is no 'too powerful' for this ability, but you know what I mean.

The addition of the Int score stuff is good, but I wonder if you ask too many good Ability Scores out of this Bard Revision.

Definitly pull Evasion.

All in all it is pretty good and if a player in my campaign where to ask if they could do this I would probably say ok!

Thysl in Silver
 

Kamard

First Post
It might be interesting to change the bardic spells list into skill based powers check system.

For example, to cast Detect Magic, the bard must have Perform 2+ and succeed at a DC 12, to cast Cure Light Wounds, have Perform 5+ and succeed at a DC 15. Each additional casting of the same spell per day adds 3 to the DC, or some number designed to make it very hard to get too many castings out of the bard.

Hmm. Thats interesting. I may work on this some more for a replacement spell system for my setting and get back to you.

Wow. I've completely not helped you at all.

Okay, I would keep Evasion and everything else. I think you have a solid class here, and a good replacement for the bard in the PHB.
 

simonski

First Post
The bard really is the class that no one ever plays ;)

But since I made the namechange as you can read in my thread, people started becoming alot more interested. The bard is a good class because it combines alot of abilities, they arent masters in a specific areas :) I think the rules for them work, try applying a namechange on a class and see people come running to play the class hehe

Below is the thread I wrote about the namechange

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6859
 


Archimago

First Post
Small Revision

I like my bardic knowledge formula (Add bard level/2) but I think it applies to much. Since PHB bardic knowledge tells you about local people, event, and gossip, etc, it would be more appropriate if the bardic knowledge (and improved bardic knowledge) only applies to knowledge (local), knowledge (arts and literature), and knowledge (history). This way it should reveal all the same facts as a PHB bardic knowledge check while still using the established knowledge check system of all the other classes, and synergizes with knowledge ranks. Are there any other knowledge areas it should apply to?

Secondly, to clarify, the Bard redux uses charisma not intelligence for its spells. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
 

Archimago

First Post
Something else I thought of...

Would it be appropriate to remove the magical trap ability from the bard and instead add "find traps" to their spell list? I forgot all about this spell when making this revision, but it does seem appropriate to be a bard spell.

Secondly, that would make the options for bardic ability:

Sneak Attack +1d6
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Bardic Knowledge
Extra Feat

That's a pretty sparse list, anyone have suggests to consider for addition?
 

Remove ads

Top