pawsplay
Hero
It's a generous subsidy and it's probably workable. I guess my objection is a philosophical one... if the Perform skills need to be subsidized to be attractive to bards, maybe they aren't designed properly.
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Bard Versatile Performance
- Thread starter pawsplay
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It's a generous subsidy and it's probably workable. I guess my objection is a philosophical one... if the Perform skills need to be subsidized to be attractive to bards, maybe they aren't designed properly.
Sigurd
First Post
I think the problem is that you have to get over the idea that playing the piano helps with diplomacy. Or that nobody is going to notice you Sing whenever you're trying to bluff.
These problems are logical but they're not entirely fair. Bards have magic and it has its own rules. As stated, the bard is not actually playing the piano while he tries his diplomacy or singing. Instead something of his great magic experience doing these things have taught him\her something of human nature that is transcendent.
The mechanics work too, if you use them the way James has mentionned. I think the description needs refocusing.
Sigurd
Who will give this more thought.
These problems are logical but they're not entirely fair. Bards have magic and it has its own rules. As stated, the bard is not actually playing the piano while he tries his diplomacy or singing. Instead something of his great magic experience doing these things have taught him\her something of human nature that is transcendent.
The mechanics work too, if you use them the way James has mentionned. I think the description needs refocusing.
Sigurd
Who will give this more thought.
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Sigurd
First Post
Fix - the Transcendent Chord
The Transcendent Chord
Bards of great skill level and performance ability reach a mystical place that teaches them deeper meanings, gives them great confidence and helps them master skills easily. These understandings happen with different performance types and grant instant skill bonuses. Bards may not share these teachings as they are a private interaction between themselves and living performance.
These insights allow the bard to reassign their skill points in certain skills and even use the same rank total for companion skills. A bard's level in an enlightened skill is raised to their total level of that particular performance type.
So the idea is that performance leads to a state of meditation that enlightens the Bard. If they have a better performance rank they reach a higher state of enlightenment. Using the modified skills is more akin to recalling that state of enlightenment. The notes of this chord are the skills that it affects.
I don't think there is very much wrong with the mechanics of the ability and I think its much more fun than just getting a few more skill points.
If you like use something like "chord triad". A bard may treat the total number of ranks in each of of the linked skills as his\her total for any one skill so long as she does not exceed her class level. So a 3rd level character with 2 sing, 1 bluff, and 1 sense motive could use a skill rank of 3 for any of those skills. At fourth level that would become 4 without any further investment. The bard would still have to trigger the progression and skill choice from versatile performance.
James - If you use any of this I'd appreciate you changing my alias description on the Pathfinder boards (also Sigurd) to 'contributor' or 'not full of crap' or something.
The Transcendent Chord
Bards of great skill level and performance ability reach a mystical place that teaches them deeper meanings, gives them great confidence and helps them master skills easily. These understandings happen with different performance types and grant instant skill bonuses. Bards may not share these teachings as they are a private interaction between themselves and living performance.
These insights allow the bard to reassign their skill points in certain skills and even use the same rank total for companion skills. A bard's level in an enlightened skill is raised to their total level of that particular performance type.
So the idea is that performance leads to a state of meditation that enlightens the Bard. If they have a better performance rank they reach a higher state of enlightenment. Using the modified skills is more akin to recalling that state of enlightenment. The notes of this chord are the skills that it affects.
I don't think there is very much wrong with the mechanics of the ability and I think its much more fun than just getting a few more skill points.
If you like use something like "chord triad". A bard may treat the total number of ranks in each of of the linked skills as his\her total for any one skill so long as she does not exceed her class level. So a 3rd level character with 2 sing, 1 bluff, and 1 sense motive could use a skill rank of 3 for any of those skills. At fourth level that would become 4 without any further investment. The bard would still have to trigger the progression and skill choice from versatile performance.
James - If you use any of this I'd appreciate you changing my alias description on the Pathfinder boards (also Sigurd) to 'contributor' or 'not full of crap' or something.
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James Jacobs
Adventurer
Eventually, I really hope there will be. And I suspect the APG will start building upon making these differences different. Frankly, I would have LOVED to see each Perform skill get its own suite of abilities associated with it for the bard, like how the sorcerer got a bunch of bloodlines. But alas... bards aren't popular enough to justify giving them that much room in the book. (I'm just a LITTLE bitter about that... ;-))
Guillaume
Julie and I miss her
That is sad, as bards are one of my favourite class. I've played a few of them (I won't say alot as I am generally a DM). I'll hold out hope that you guys can get this idea to fruition.
Mark Chance
Boingy! Boingy!
I've mulled over the Versatile Performance problem. While mulling, I was reminded of the words of Ludwig von Beethoven.
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
The bard, through his study of music and other entertaining arts, gradually arrives at deeper, intuitive understanding of certain things. This almost mystical understanding manifests itself through the bard's Versatile Performance class feature. Note that Versatile Performance doesn't mean a bard is using Perform to actually do the skill. For example, a bard with Versatile Performance for Perform (keyboard instruments) isn't actually more diplomatic or intimidating because he's playing a piano. Rather, his bardic understanding of the metaphysics of keyboard music makes him more diplomatic and more intimidating.
A New Type of Versatile Performance (Ex)
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute. Each type of Perform skill has two other skills associated with it: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
The first time one of these skills is affected by Versatile Performance, the bard gains a bonus skill point for those skills only. For example, at 2nd level, a bard chooses Oratory as his Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Diplomacy and 1 bonus skill point in Sense Motive.
Every subsequent selection of Versatile Performance only awards a bonus skill point if that particular associated skill has not already received a bonus skill point. Otherwise, the bard receives a +2 insight bonus with the skill. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Sing as his second Versatile Performance. He receives 1 bonus skill point in Bluff since this is the first time it has been an associated skill for Versatile Performance. He receives a +2 insight bonus to Diplomacy since it's already received a bonus skill point.
The third and greater times a skill is associated with Versatile Performance, the insight bonus increases by +2. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Keyboard Instruments for his next Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Intimidate. His insight bonus to Diplomacy increases to +4.
Is this a good start to "fixing" Versatile Performance? If not, why not? What're your ideas and suggestions?
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
The bard, through his study of music and other entertaining arts, gradually arrives at deeper, intuitive understanding of certain things. This almost mystical understanding manifests itself through the bard's Versatile Performance class feature. Note that Versatile Performance doesn't mean a bard is using Perform to actually do the skill. For example, a bard with Versatile Performance for Perform (keyboard instruments) isn't actually more diplomatic or intimidating because he's playing a piano. Rather, his bardic understanding of the metaphysics of keyboard music makes him more diplomatic and more intimidating.
A New Type of Versatile Performance (Ex)
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute. Each type of Perform skill has two other skills associated with it: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
The first time one of these skills is affected by Versatile Performance, the bard gains a bonus skill point for those skills only. For example, at 2nd level, a bard chooses Oratory as his Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Diplomacy and 1 bonus skill point in Sense Motive.
Every subsequent selection of Versatile Performance only awards a bonus skill point if that particular associated skill has not already received a bonus skill point. Otherwise, the bard receives a +2 insight bonus with the skill. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Sing as his second Versatile Performance. He receives 1 bonus skill point in Bluff since this is the first time it has been an associated skill for Versatile Performance. He receives a +2 insight bonus to Diplomacy since it's already received a bonus skill point.
The third and greater times a skill is associated with Versatile Performance, the insight bonus increases by +2. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Keyboard Instruments for his next Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Intimidate. His insight bonus to Diplomacy increases to +4.
Is this a good start to "fixing" Versatile Performance? If not, why not? What're your ideas and suggestions?
Mark,
your solution is a little too complicated. At least, in my opinion.
Explanation of terms:
- virtual skill - just like virtual feat, this is a free skill, usable as long as the prerequisites are met.
- max ranked class skill - the rating of the skill is equal to current total character level + 3. It's hard to imagine a Bard not having a maximum in his (or her) Perform skill... of course, one would argue that splitting skill points among various Perform skills would prevent it from being at maximum, however it's unlikely for a Bard to choose suboptimal pair. Besides... do we really need associated accounting (N Perform skills means N possible pairs of virtual skills).
Regards,
Ruemere
PS. Personally, I consider this class ability to be pretty awkward and rank it as even less appealing as Ranger virtual feats. I would simply go with free Skill Focus feat every four levels applicable to any Dexterity or Charisma based skill and be done with that. Life is too short and roleplaying is too good to be spent on number juggling while you could be hunting dragons in dungeons.
your solution is a little too complicated. At least, in my opinion.
Explanation of terms:
- virtual skill - just like virtual feat, this is a free skill, usable as long as the prerequisites are met.
- max ranked class skill - the rating of the skill is equal to current total character level + 3. It's hard to imagine a Bard not having a maximum in his (or her) Perform skill... of course, one would argue that splitting skill points among various Perform skills would prevent it from being at maximum, however it's unlikely for a Bard to choose suboptimal pair. Besides... do we really need associated accounting (N Perform skills means N possible pairs of virtual skills).
Regards,
Ruemere
PS. Personally, I consider this class ability to be pretty awkward and rank it as even less appealing as Ranger virtual feats. I would simply go with free Skill Focus feat every four levels applicable to any Dexterity or Charisma based skill and be done with that. Life is too short and roleplaying is too good to be spent on number juggling while you could be hunting dragons in dungeons.
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Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
What's artificial about raising skill points? It seems much smoother than the extremely convoluted rules that you propose.
The argument in BETA test days was that raising skill points would negatively affect backward compatibility. On the other hand, we still have revised Favored Class rules (and potential additional 1 skill point / level).
Regards,
Ruemere
pawsplay
Hero
That's not a compatability problem, that's an accounting problem. Who cares how many skills ranks some NPC has?
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