Bardic Knowledge, when to use it?

[pawned79]

Here is a great example of bardic knowledge at its best working to know what a hobbit is.

http://www.alteringtime.com/features/misc/?p=baggins

~ Patrick ~

 

[Arravis]

The point I was attempting to make is that Bardic Knowledge is a hodge-podge skill, not a scholarly one. Bardic Knowledge gives you random tidbits of lot's of specific things, thus the "local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places." Knowledge skills are more comprehensive, allowing you to know both the general and the specific (depending on the knowledge skills you have). There is a reason why Bardic Knowledge is limited.

There are 8 Knowledge skills, plus who knows how many Knowledge Local skills (dozens in a setting like Forgotten realms). By your thinking, it would take a minimum of 90 skill points or 180 cross classed skill points (taking into account merely 1 Knowledge Local) for a 10th level character to get the knowledge of a 10th level character with Bardic Knowledge. Is that what you're saying? It doesn't quite seem fair to all the people who've put points into knowledge skills that one ability should supercede them all. Such a thing is not in either the letter of the rules nor in it's spirit.

They are different for a reason. The rules very clearly state the differences and support my position. What rules support the counter-arguement?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Side note: Patryn's litte sidetrack upthread is quite relevant.... the BK grants knowledge of "local notable..etc" based on knowledge of stories, legends, and history....

A failed check could very easily lead the BK astray with a ficticious legend.. Fowl Balor's indeed!

Just check out the Real World (tm) mediviel bestiaries and what they thought 'common' animals could do!

I am in the camp of BK enhancing Kn(x) checks.. much as above with Kn(x) reflecting dry statistical information and BK reflecting tales and stories.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

There are 8 Knowledge skills, plus who knows how many Knowledge Local skills (dozens in a setting like Forgotten realms). By your thinking, it would take a minimum of 90 skill points or 180 cross classed skill points (taking into account merely 1 Knowledge Local) for a 10th level character to get the knowledge of a 10th level character with Bardic Knowledge. Is that what you're saying? It doesn't quite seem fair to all the people who've put points into knowledge skills that one ability should supercede them all. Such a thing is not in either the letter of the rules nor in it's spirit.

That's why its a class ability. Because it's powerful and useful, and there's NO other way to get it unless you take a class with that ability. Same reason you can't get sneak attack unless you take a class with that ability. I don't know about you, but I think +10d6 for a sneak attack is pretty powerful... and in perspective, you're comparing Bardic Knowledge to +10d6 of sneak attack damage (in the way of class abilities)... I'd have to side with the sneak attack being more powerful and overall more useful... IMHO...

 

[kanithardm]

Bardic knowledge is tidbits about EVERYTHING.
A real life example:

I deliver messages and notes from teacher to teacher. If I read a note that had Teacher A asking for computer help, and this happened often then id know that she wasn't good with a computer. Voila Bardic Knowledge

 

[pawned79]

They are different for a reason. The rules very clearly state the differences and support my position. What rules support the counter-arguement?

I have no rules to support my counter-argument.

DM to DM, I still disagree. If I have a player who doesn’t know the gaming world very well, and I mention some race, I would let her roll BK to see if she knows Bob, a famous member of that race. She rolls REALLY high, I’ll tell her all about Bob, and she can claw and scavenge all the RP/combat info out of the story, along with enjoying something she didn’t know previously. I mention some race, and she rolls REALLY high on a Knowledge Underdark/Arcana/Planes/etc check – I hand her the Monster Manual.

~ Patrick ~

 

[Whimsical]

I think that sneak attack compares more directly with bardic spellcasting than bardic knowledge.

Personally, I believe that bardic knowledge does have a lot of overlap with certain knowledge skills, I have found that the Bardic Knowledge class ability to be an artifact from previous editions of AD&D that doesn't mesh well with the 3e skills rules. After all, most bits of info that can revealed with bardic knowledge could logically also be brought up with the appropriate Knowledge skill. Most likely K:Local, K:History, or K:Royalty.

I have as a house rule that the Bardic Knowledge class ability instead grants you the following beneficts at certain class levels. Any of the listed abilities that augments Knowledge skill checks also work on any skill check that is being used as a knowledge check, such as using Heal for diagnosis or forensics.

• 1st: +2 skill points/level (or +2x4 if your first level is bard) that can only be used on Knowledge skills, and you can use any knowledge skill untrained for any DC, not just DC 10 and lower.
• 5th: you add +2 to any Knowledge check.
• 7th: you can take a full round action to reroll a knowledge check (but no rerolls on rerolls)
• 11th: you can make the reroll granted at 7th level as a free action.
• 13th: you can use a bardic music effect to recall perfectly a moment of your past as a full round action as if you had affected yourself with the memory recall aspect of modify memory.
• 17th: you can use a bardic music effect to grant yourself an insight bonus to a knowledge check equal to your charisma bonus as part of the knowledge check action.

The last two are supernatural effects that use up a daily use of bardic music, and has the same limitations where you need to be able to hear yourself sing, recite, or perform music and it doesn't work if you are immune to mind influencing effects.

 

[jeffhartsell]

I think that sneak attack compares more directly with bardic spellcasting than bardic knowledge.

Personally, I believe that bardic knowledge does have a lot of overlap with certain knowledge skills, I have found that the Bardic Knowledge class ability to be an artifact from previous editions of AD&D that doesn't mesh well with the 3e skills rules. After all, most bits of info that can revealed with bardic knowledge could logically also be brought up with the appropriate Knowledge skill. Most likely K:Local, K:History, or K:Royalty.

I agree that bardic knowledge does not work well using the knew 3.x rules. Bards are not necessarily scolars hence not making bardic knowledge work like a knowledge skill. However, bards should know quite a bit about "stuff" based on lore. It is tough and we (my DM and I when I DM) have never been able to use it well. Luckily (or unlucky) I am the only one that likes bards. However, because of how crappy it works and my DM does not treat it like a general knowledge skill, I don't play bards now.

 

[Arravis]

Synthetik Fish: Comparing one class ability to another doesn't help. They all vary in power and usefulness. Any direct comparison between abilities breaks down rather quickly.

kanithardm: The rules cleary state what Bardic Knowledge covers and it isn't everything.

pawned79: There is nothing in the Bardic Knowledge ability that would give you any meta-rule information. That power is strictly limited to Knowledge skills as stated in the PHB.

Whimsical: I agree 100% that Bardic Knowledge is a poorly implemented ability brought over from earlier editions. It should be some sort of bonus, modifier, etc to existing Knowledge skills. It would elegantly solve all the problems it has. I like your system except for the reliance on the "bard" part of Bardic Knowledge. As listed in my previous post, there are many non-bard based classes grant the Bardic Knowledge ability.

I think an alternate system would be great, but I guess that's for the house rules forum, not here. Anyone know of an existing alternate that isn't bard-based?

 

[RigaMortus2]

As before, all I can do is point to the exact wording of the ability:
"local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places."
I find that clear and specific.

And Drow are not "local notable people"? I would think that at least in Forgotten Realms they would be.