Bards: Is it their personal charm or their charming personality?

[Tom McCafferty]

I have a bard character who tried to sway a lynch mob from killing a fellow character.

The DM argued that the bard's persuading ability was a 'spell-like' effect and was counteracted by protection from good, and the mob was large enough that most would save versus any charm effect.

If a bard can't sway a crowd what good are they I thought?

Is my DM correct?

 

[Thanee]

You are speaking of this ability, I suppose?

Fascinate (Sp)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Your DM is incorrect in that Protection from Good does not grant immunity against this ability, as it does not provide ongoing control over the subjects.

Also I don't know what mob size has to do with saving throws; he probably just meant, that since they make their save more often than not (which would be fairly unreasonable to begin with, that they have such high Will saves; and why do they all (?) have Protection from Good anyways?), most won't be affected, if he just assumed an average spread instead of rolling.

However, Fascinate is unfortunately very limited to only a few persons and therefore you cannot target a mob with it.

The Diplomacy skill would probably be the right way to deal with that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tatsukun]

I'm not following, how was he trying to do it? Was he just using a diplomacy check, or was he using the "mass suggestion" bard ability?

If it's the latter, then the DM is right. The Bard entry says the ability is a compulsion ability, and Protection from X blocks those for as long as the spell is working.

If it's the former, then he's wrong. Protection from X doesn't help you against a diplomacy skill check.

-Tatsu

 

[Thanee]

If it's the latter, then the DM is right. The Bard entry says the ability is a compulsion ability, and Protection from X blocks those for as long as the spell is working.

This is not correct. The spell does not protect against all compulsions, only a very small subset of them.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Also see the FAQ entry (quoted in the "Protection from Evil" thread) for further reference. It specifically explains, that effects, which only have a single "command" (like Suggestion), are not affected, because there is no ongoing control.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tom McCafferty]

As I thought...

It would have been better to have a thief with the Diplomacy skill pumped up to the same level as the bard's perform skill. Add to that the shield spell is not available to bards, makes them useless.

 

[Thanee]

Oh, bards are far from useless... but you need to know their limitations and use their abilities in the right situations.

It's certainly a very hard class to get a similar mileage out of than some of the other classes (like a fighter or rogue).

And it also takes a DM who allows you to make decent use of your abilities, of course.

Bye
Thanee

 

[two]

I have a bard character who tried to sway a lynch mob from killing a fellow character.

The DM argued that the bard's persuading ability was a 'spell-like' effect and was counteracted by protection from good, and the mob was large enough that most would save versus any charm effect.

If a bard can't sway a crowd what good are they I thought?

Is my DM correct?

I think your DM is totally off base.

Assuming your bard had "diplomacy" (as a skill) at the VERY least he should have allowed a diplomacy check. If this was reasonably sucessful, stopping the mob from killing the PC immediately, the bard could have targeted a few members of the rabble and won them over to his cause via suggestions or fascinate -- or even sung a song to the entire crowd about an innocent accused wrongly of a crime who, however, managed to get off in the end (a famous song or myth).

Honestly, dealing with a mass of humanity is what bards do well, even without any magic involved at all.

I have absolutely no idea why some DM's are like this. They are happy to allow a sorcerer to blast a black bear to bits with a spell, but unwilling to allow a charismatic and attractive orator to effect a crowd. I mean, people in the REAL would could stop a mob dead in its tracks. Don't beleive me? Throw Angelina Jolie in front of a mob and see what happens. Before two minutes is gone, she'll be giving peaceful admirers autographs while the PC in danger (entirely forgotten about) slips away.

 

[Henry]

As I thought...

It would have been better to have a thief with the Diplomacy skill pumped up to the same level as the bard's perform skill. Add to that the shield spell is not available to bards, makes them useless.

You mean you have a bard who DOESN'T have maxxed Diplomacy? It's one of the first things I'd have after Perform (Oratory) or (Singing).

 

[Arnwyn]

I think your DM is totally off base.

Assuming your bard had "diplomacy" (as a skill) at the VERY least he should have allowed a diplomacy check.

I think the player didn't think of diplomacy.

 

[Tom McCafferty]

The Bard's Diplomacy and Bluff are a lot lower than his Perform skill (as that is what the bardic abilities are based on). The LE Cleric bad guy would just laugh in his face if he tried diplomacy.