Bards just don't convince me!

[Logos]

While the bard has some benefit as a 5th(or 6th or 7th) member of a party, there's no way I'd pick one if the four main bases(skill-monkey, arcane caster, healer, meatshield) weren't already covered. Even then, I'd be far more inclined to take a second caster. Yes, a bard can open up with inspire courage and then start plinking away, he won't compare damage-wise to the sorcerer who opens up with summon monster and then starts tossing fireballs.

Yes, the bard is a decent enchanter, and he tends to get enchantment spells at a lower spell level, but because his spell level progresses more slowly this doesn't necessarily help him. He may be able to cast hold monster as a 4th level spell instead of the wizard who uses a 5th level spell slot. But since both gain access to it at level 10, it means that the bard gets hit with a -1 to its DC. And the bard will never get insanity or dominate monster, or any other 7th to 9th level spells, or any powerful blasting spells.

The bard also suffers from MAD. If he wants to be a remotely decent enchanter, then he needs to boost his cha through the roof to help compensate for his lower level spells. That means that his dex and str suffer, which hurt his melee damage even more.

Yes, bards offer role-playing potential. But so does every other class. You can always play a bard simply because you want to play a bard, but you have to realize that unless you move as quickly as possible into one of the few powerful bard-specific PrCs(none of which are core, unfortunately), you're going to be less than effective combat-wise. That isn't necessarily a deal breaker for you, but I don't think you can argue credibly that it isn't the case.

 

[DonTadow]

Patryn is right, a bard of level 1 can help the group to do +1 dmg for all the combat. The inspire courage last for 5 round after you stop, if you take the right feat this last for 10 round. After you stop you can join the combat as well and all your friend get this nice bonus. This not bad

Don't forget that bard is roleplay opportunity in gold, who wouldn't want a bard in his group to write tales about their heroic deeds and became famous ?

The bard in my group is possibliy the most valuable player in the group. I do a player of the week every week, and for the last 7 week's he's won 5 out of 7 times. The only reason he didn't win the other tw otimes I believe is because I exclude people from winning three weeks in a row.

He's a great roll player but the strength is in the character itself. As someone said, this guy can do some minor trap finding, he can do a bit of healing, he makes other peopel's attacks more potenent and he is great at getting rid of low cr creatures with sleep and charm spells. Plus with our bard, he's hte money maker of the group. Between adventure's he's off performing at pubs with his one man comedy show making gold for hte party using his perform skills to add to hte party's plots.

As one of my players has told me twice "man that bard has saved my a$$$ plenty of times" . Doesnt have the brute strength, or the magical abilities but he has the all around helper characters.

But playing a good bard is in the player who plays it. You got to be creative to play a good bard because you won't have the strength to jump up in the top of battle or start spitting out magic missles.

 

[DonTadow]

True: they'll be second-best to rogues in this department.


Not quite true. Sorcerers get enchantment spells about a level after bards get them, in general. While they can cast more, the bard's superior skill ranks will make certain actions within the enchantment spells much easier (as stated before, bluff is great for making a Suggestion seem reasonable; Disguise can help with a charm monster or suggestion). And Bards get several enchantmenty-type powers as bardic music, which is highly flexible. I still maintain that a bard makes a better enchanter than a sorcerer, even if we discount the general benefits of better saves (I think) and better HP and better armor.


Doesn't really require lots of level of bard; it's always useful. Relying on the town sage requires being near a town and requires wasting time while the sage looks it up; this is akin to saying that casting Raise Dead is what the town cleric is for, or that creating magic items is what the town wizard is for, and discounting these abilities thereby.



Very few clerics, druids, or rangers will be as diplomatic as a bard, and paladins who are as good as bards are at diplomacy do so at the cost of having any other skill. Even then, bards are likely to get +6 synergy bonuses to diplomacy by third or fourth level; they'll probably outpace all other classes at diplomacy (since the second-best competition, the rogue, probably doesn't have cha as a primary stat).


True: bards are second-class archers.


I can't comment on this.


I agree that constant singing is probably unwise in most cases. But a bard can sing the first round and cast haste the second round; a sorcerer can't cast haste the first round and sing the second round. And at eighth level, inspire courage far outpowers haste in many circumstances (i.e, any circumstance in which full attacks are difficult).


For myself, I've used only SRD material in the defense.


Again, I disagree: I think bards do a set of complementary tasks (namely, convincing people to do what you want them to do) better than anyone else, and are quite good at a range of other tasks (especially buffing and researching). I'm playing the second bard I've played, and find that clever exploitation of these abilities makes the class quite powerful indeed.

Daniel

You hit the nail on thehead Pierno. The bard is not going to be a starter, he's not going to be the BEST at anything. But what he is is a great bench player. He'll be your best sixth man. If the rogue is down, he''ll look for traps, if the sorceror's fried, he'll spit out a spell, if the cleric is dead he has the healing covered. PLus add his inspire courages, hastes his bardic knowledge (which is more than a puzzle solver if your DM does it right) and he's invaluable. Bardic Knowlecge is an amazing skill and very unique. Anywhere you go that bard get's that bardic knowledge roll. IF he rolls high he might be able to tell you about the type of traps, monsters, and history of the place as well as what he's heard about villians in it.

I doubt a townsage would do that... heck if its my campaign the town sage 9 times out of 10 is in cohoots with whatever evil is going down.

 

[Neil Aitken]

I'm currently running an Aasimar Bard (Level 7) in a very combat heavy campaign. What I wanted was a character who could contribute to the overall party and still stay out of harm's way (his 10 Strength makes him pretty useless in melee).

In my case, I built the character to maximize the Inspire Courage ability.

Even though my base Inspire Courage bonus is still +1/+1 at 7th Level, I can boost it considerably with the right combination of feats and spells.

1) Words of Creation (Exalted) = feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. This will let you infuse your bard abilities with divine power, which in the case of Inspire Courage lets you double the Inspire Courage bonus. You take 3d4 subdual damage when you activate this feat.

2) Inspirational Boost (Bard 1 spell) = Complete Adventurer. Improves your base bonus to Inspire Courage by 1.

Base Bonus = +1/+1
After Inspirational Boost = +2/+2
Singing with Words of Creation + Inspirational Boost = +4/+4

In my party with a hasted archer attacking 4 times a round and a second archer attacking 3 times a round, plus a monk flurrying and other party members contributing their attacks, the extra +4/+4 per hit is a definitely a noticeable contribution. Let's say 8 blows hit in that round, my bard is contributing 32 points for that round.

After Level 8 of Bard

Base Bonus = +2/+2
Inspirational Boost = +3/+3
Inspirational Boost + Words of Creation = +6/+6

In just one level, the bard now contributes (assuming now 10 successful blows out of 10 or 12 attempts by party members) a total of +60 points each round.

Combining this with the Bard 2 spell, Tactical Insight (Complete Adventurer) which gives an additional +2/+1d6 damage to party member attack rolls against flanked creatures, the bard can make a huge difference in battle.

It should be noted that while the bard abilities are usually thought of as being spoken or sung abilities, you can also use instruments.

If you use a Masterwork Drum or Masterwork Horn, you gain an additional +1 to the damage bonus of Inspire Courage. Playing a Masterwork Drum while singing with the Words of Creation can be a devasting combo.

 

[Neil Aitken]

Another fun bard tactic to play with:

High Bluff + Ventriloquism (Bard 1 spell) + Goad (feat from Complete Adventurer)

 

[irdeggman]

People seem to tend to fall into a direct comparison of which class is more powerful by trying tocompare them in a one-on-one fight. Well, a fighter kicks a wizard's but in a one-on-one fight. If it is a melee one (also the focus appearing to apply here since a lotof discussion deals with armor, hit points, etc.), but in the right circumstances a wizard will demolish a fighter almost every time.

Basically circumstances determine which class is better. And that is part of the game concept - not every character is best all the time, each one has a role to fill and a niche in which they are the "most useful".

A bard is a class that is oriented towards interaction. In a game where interaction is a minor part of the play (e.g., hack and slash games) a bard's importance is marginalized. Likewise in a game where interactionis key and hack and slashing is minimized a fighter's importance is marginalized.

Bards are the only core-class for which Speak Language is a class skill. They also get more skill points than other classes (except rogues). Bards are also spontaneous casters who can cast arcane cure spells (something I don't like, but it is the rule).

Bards do not need to sing to invoke their bardic abilities - they only need to perform. Drumming is performing. In our game we had a dwarf bard/cleric that used to do a gregorian chant type of performing. In a 2nd ed game I ran a bard who did drum sticks as his type of performance, and of course recitation (you've got to be able to tell a story). I had a saying then that the story doesn't have to be true it only has to be entertaining.

Basically bards are an excellent class for an interactive type of situation and thus inherently something that lends itself to role-playing vice hack and slashing. This is not to say that other classes can't be role played well, but they just aren't primarily an interaction based class - this pretty much forces some sort of role play in order to pull it off.

 

[The Souljourner]

If you build a bard correctly, you can be just as useful as one of the four main classes. You will never beat any of them at what they do best, but you will be 2/3 as good as any of them most of the time.

The problem is that it's very easy to build a bard incorrectly. The minute you start thinking about maxing out one part of your skillset, you're shooting yourself in the foot. "I know, I'll max out my enchantment spells... bards are good at those, right?" BZZZZ Wrong. You have to do your best to balance all aspects of a bard's abilities. That means spellcasting, fighting, and skills. Healing... well, bards aren't ever going to be main healer or even secondary healer, but they can be a last resort healer.

So here's what you need to do - first and foremost, make sure you have decent strength, 14 minimum. You have BAB equal to a monk, rogue, or cleric... they can fight and so can you. Don't gimp yourself by thinking you don't need to melee. You do. It'll be one of the main ways you help the party during combat.

Second - make sure you don't waste too many resources getting high Charisma. Believe it or not, you really only need to start with a 14. 16 would be good, but is not strictly necessary. You are not a blaster mage, where all your abilities depend on the opponent failing his saving throw.

Basically, an ideal bard has a 14 in everything (except wisdom, which is their only true dump stat). 14 14 14 12 10 14... there's a 30 point bard who will do pretty well. You might be able to squeeze out a 16 charisma, but I don't think it would be worth the sacrifice. Long before you get to 5th level spells, you should have a +2 charisma item, so casting them won't be a problem.

I played a bard, and I was a big help to the party. We were 8th-ish, and my +2 to hit and damage was huge... add haste to that, and you're really increasing the party's damage output. You really just need to play a bard like a rogue who gets spells instead of sneak attack.

-The Souljourner

 

[werk]

People have said to me: "Well if you already have your bases covered as a party, Bard's are awesome!" but I still think any party would be better off with a second Mage or a second Cleric over a Bard!

If your party could use a second cleric or mage, I'd think it would be the perfect opportunity for a bard.

 

[werk]

...but I still find it hard to believe that the difference between a bard and a cleric boils down to hps...

And armor, and type of spell cast and access to arcane items like scrolls and wands and different skill list and...so different.

Don't try thinking what bard qualities are like this or that other class. It's like saying the only difference between a cleric and a fighter is that clerics can cast divine spells, when in truth, there is a lot more going on there.

Examine the bard for his own merit. I strongly suggest adding the bard to your party just so you can learn about the class.

 

[two]

I'm currently running an Aasimar Bard (Level 7) in a very combat heavy campaign. What I wanted was a character who could contribute to the overall party and still stay out of harm's way (his 10 Strength makes him pretty useless in melee).

In my case, I built the character to maximize the Inspire Courage ability.

Even though my base Inspire Courage bonus is still +1/+1 at 7th Level, I can boost it considerably with the right combination of feats and spells.

1) Words of Creation (Exalted) = feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. This will let you infuse your bard abilities with divine power, which in the case of Inspire Courage lets you double the Inspire Courage bonus. You take 3d4 subdual damage when you activate this feat.

2) Inspirational Boost (Bard 1 spell) = Complete Adventurer. Improves your base bonus to Inspire Courage by 1.

Base Bonus = +1/+1
After Inspirational Boost = +2/+2
Singing with Words of Creation + Inspirational Boost = +4/+4

In my party with a hasted archer attacking 4 times a round and a second archer attacking 3 times a round, plus a monk flurrying and other party members contributing their attacks, the extra +4/+4 per hit is a definitely a noticeable contribution. Let's say 8 blows hit in that round, my bard is contributing 32 points for that round.

After Level 8 of Bard

Base Bonus = +2/+2
Inspirational Boost = +3/+3
Inspirational Boost + Words of Creation = +6/+6

In just one level, the bard now contributes (assuming now 10 successful blows out of 10 or 12 attempts by party members) a total of +60 points each round.

Combining this with the Bard 2 spell, Tactical Insight (Complete Adventurer) which gives an additional +2/+1d6 damage to party member attack rolls against flanked creatures, the bard can make a huge difference in battle.

It should be noted that while the bard abilities are usually thought of as being spoken or sung abilities, you can also use instruments.

If you use a Masterwork Drum or Masterwork Horn, you gain an additional +1 to the damage bonus of Inspire Courage. Playing a Masterwork Drum while singing with the Words of Creation can be a devasting combo.

I can't being to explain how disgustingly power +6/+6 to hit/to damage is at level 8. Or +8/+8 with a masterwork horn. Gross

Seriously, that's getting to the over-the-top broken stage. I take it back. It IS at that stage.

With +8/+8, your 2-handed weapon users can transform the +8 bonus "to hit" right into damage, at 2x1 ratio, for a net result of: +0 "to hit" and +24 damage.

!!

That's right, read it again.

+0 "to hit" and +24 damage.

That's just impossible.

More mundanely, a group of 10 peasants, inspired by a +8/+8 bard, are about as effective dishing damage and hitting as 4/5th level fighters.

A group of these types of bard spread throughout a low-grade army would turn them into a destructo-army-o-doom.

Just scary.