Battlefield Archer quarry damage

[boar]

Hmm, it's true that the loss of prime shot is deeply felt in some builds. Still, toughness and quickdraw on their own are each better than defensive mobility, which now that battle caster defense exists I certainly would NOT "take eventually anyway." I especially like the hunter option: take the new melee at-will that uses dex and use it when you're cornered. I'd much rather do that than eat OA's, +2 to AC or no.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hmm, it's true that the loss of prime shot is deeply felt in some builds. Still, toughness and quickdraw on their own are each better than defensive mobility, which now that battle caster defense exists I certainly would NOT "take eventually anyway." I especially like the hunter option: take the new melee at-will that uses dex and use it when you're cornered. I'd much rather do that than eat OA's, +2 to AC or no.

Defensive Mobility is more versatile as it applies to ALL OAs. BCD only applies when you provoke with a ranged attack. Now, that's common enough with an archer that it is the better feat, but that doesn't diminish the utility of a free Defensive Mobility. I don't know about quickdraw being better, it is handy for certain builds, useless for others. Toughness is better, nobody is really disputing that, but honestly just being a really superior ranged attacker kicks so much ass that frankly I don't miss anything from TBF. Archer rangers don't really need BA to justify them, it is just that you don't NEED to be an archer build otherwise. Ranger is a screwy class though, it obviously could have used a bit more thought.

 

[DracoSuave]

Let's not pretend Toughness is a good feat for archers. 5/10/15 extra hit points is not worth that much, and two weapon fighting is useless if you don't fight with two weapons.

Honestly, I'd rather have Defensive Mobility than toughness anyways. Preventing hits is better than a minor amount of hit points, as more hit points doesn't stop the nasty riders that basic attacks tend to have on the monsters you want to avoid being beside.

Does Toughness do -anything- to prevent you from being knocked prone by that soldier? No? Then it is not as good as you think. It's not about DPR. It's not about surge values. Those are less important than having your turn ruined. A well placed soldier can make your turn less likely to happen how you like.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Let's not pretend Toughness is a good feat for archers. 5/10/15 extra hit points is not worth that much, and two weapon fighting is useless if you don't fight with two weapons.

Honestly, I'd rather have Defensive Mobility than toughness anyways. Preventing hits is better than a minor amount of hit points, as more hit points doesn't stop the nasty riders that basic attacks tend to have on the monsters you want to avoid being beside.

Does Toughness do -anything- to prevent you from being knocked prone by that soldier? No? Then it is not as good as you think. It's not about DPR. It's not about surge values. Those are less important than having your turn ruined. A well placed soldier can make your turn less likely to happen how you like.

Well, there are various ways of looking at that... The real question is is the +2 from DM going to happen that often? You might only provoke an OA once per encounter, if that. It might save you no more than a hit per level of play, or less.

Toughness OTOH will come into play. Sure it is a marginal number of hit points and 1 or maybe 2 to your surge value but hit points are going to be useful all the time. You could argue the extra 5 points only matters when you're at or below 5 hit points of course, so it may also be something that doesn't come up that much.

Truthfully they are both marginal feats for a PC that has many other options open to them and isn't trying to be a tank or striking in melee, etc. The observation that Archer really only gets you BA is valid enough. There's really no big difference between the two builds. DM will serve many archers a bit better than toughness and vice versa, but either feat has some utility in both cases and both feats are fairly weak.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

The only build in all of 4e that I could see taking Defensive Mobility for would be a Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue who is gobbling up every anti-OA boost in order to make shifting a thing of the past.

Oh wait -- I had one of those. An ultra-high AC against OA gave her the confidence to cross the battlefield to revive the party's Cleric with a healing potion, but a 19 hit her anyway, taking her to -2 HP. Three death saving throws and it was all over.

Defensive Mobility should be a +4 bonus to all defenses on OAs. For that, I'd take it. Otherwise, it's an okay freebie but not particularly good.

 

[Arlough]

In addition, any attack made against a quarry receives a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

I believe that there was a faq response that it did apply to the whole party.

Can anyone point me to this FAQ?
It seems, with this power, the Paragon Path is too powerful, but without it, Archer Fighting Style is too weak.

 

[DracoSuave]

DM will serve many archers a bit better than toughness and vice versa, but either feat has some utility in both cases and both feats are fairly weak.

And that's my whole point. Seeing as they are weak... it's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Either way tho, DM can add DPR by occasionally making a controlling OA not hit you, whereas Toughness does not add DPR. If you're going to min-max, min-max for what helps you do your job, not for, of all things, 5 measly hit points.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

0If you're going to min-max, min-max for what helps you do your job, not for, of all things, 5 measly hit points.

All of my PCs so far have "done their job" best when they were conscious.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[DracoSuave]

All of my PCs so far have "done their job" best when they were conscious.

Your mileage may vary.

My PCs find it easier to stay conscious when they don't get hit in the first place.

 

[boar]

Toughness is more than 5 hitpoints. It's 5 + 1 or 2/surge (at heroic) or 10 + 2 or 3/surge (at paragon). You'll be taking damage no matter what, but you won't be taking OA's no matter what, and if you do take OA's, DM is going to save you only time out of ten.