Battles taking too long - whats the tricks?

[kristov]

Ok - we just had a 4 on 4 battle, 4 pc's vs. some vampire chick, 2 banshees and a sword wraith (14th levelish)

The battle took like 2.5 hours - which is just absurd and I dont think we were really being too slow about it but we werent just hard core nose down fighting.

My question is what are the commonly use tricks to speed combat up in this game. The WOTC modules have like 40 combats per module and it just takes way too long to finish up a module with combat taking so slow.

Keep in mind, im not hating on 4e - just sayin'.

Help me out here and give me some ideas that are commonplace to speeding this bad boy up so we can see more roleplaying in between our miniatures game.

 

[ggroy]

Replace some of the generic monsters, with "minionized" versions of them.

Strip out the monster's hit points, and have them die after 2 direct hits. A critical success or a lot of damage could kill them in 1 hit. Otherwise everything else about the monsters is unchanged. (Another variation would be to have them die after 3 direct hits).

A less radical way of doing this would be to turn a generic monster into a "minion" once they're bloodied. One hit after being bloodied and they're dead.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I think the OP means they still want to run the combats as written.

Personally, I reckon once the battle is won and a foregone conclusion, the DM should call it.
Maybe with a proviso like, "if you 2 spend an additional surge, you mop up."

Some players don't like that, though ... to them the main combat is the chore, while the finish is the payoff.

How about the usual stuff:
Predrawn maps (or a list of which tiles to use by combat)
Rolling attacks & damage at the same time (some stuff break this, but usually works when PCs do the attacking ... it's PC interrupts that mess things around)

Me, I just like to build lethal characters.
That quicks things up real good.

 

[Markn]

Monsters at 75-80% HPs and get a boost in damage.

Use average damage instead of rolling for both PCs and monsters. For monsters you can vary the average damage by rolling a d6 along with the d20. If the D20 hits with an even number add the d6 to the average monster damage. If its odd, subtract from the average damage. We do this and this has had the single biggest impact on the speed of fights.

If you think 4 vs 4 is long then don't ever add more players! More players means more monsters and all they really are bags of HPs! Just warning you.

Make sure everyone knows their powers, knows what they will do when their turn arrives.


Tweak creatures so they are easier to hit (maybe lowering defenses by 1 or 2) and give them a boost in a different way.

Hope that helps!

 

[ggroy]

Personally, I reckon once the battle is won and a foregone conclusion, the DM should call it.
Maybe with a proviso like, "if you 2 spend an additional surge, you mop up."

If the players are clearly winning and the combat is dragging on, I'll sometimes do a fake "morale" check on the monsters and have them run away.

In the middle of combat, sometimes I'll have the backline archers or magic user retreat and disappear from the battle once they're out of arrows or injured.

 

[MerricB]

Ok - we just had a 4 on 4 battle, 4 pc's vs. some vampire chick, 2 banshees and a sword wraith (14th levelish)

The battle took like 2.5 hours - which is just absurd and I dont think we were really being too slow about it but we werent just hard core nose down fighting.

Heh. You're currently playing through P2 Demon Queen's Enclave, aren't you? We played that combat last session - 4 players + NPC vs the same opponents (+ minions). The combat took us about an hour or so, but would have taken longer if not for the vampire chick being Dominated by the wizard in the first few rounds and made to retreat from the combat.

That combat, just due to the defenses of the opposition, is going to take some time. However, the tactics of the party, along with the party's composition, can have a huge bearing on how long it takes. In addition to the usual suspects: poor mathematical skills, slow decision making, etc.

See also the link in my signature.

Cheers!

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm considering, instead of reducing monster hit points, just decreasing their defenses and increasing their attack bonuses by 2. Missing is boring, especially since players typically spend 95% of their turn figuring out what they're going to do, and only 5% of the time rolling to accomplish it. If you're missing on even a third of your attacks, you're wasting a lot of time.

Once you get players who know their powers, pay attention to the battle map, and are willing to do what sounds like a good idea instead of agonizing over the perfect tactical option, there aren't many other ways to speed up combat aside from house rules.

 

[fba827]

Paragon tier -does- take longer real time than heroic tier simply because there is often much more going on. so take that in to consideration, the question is, is it taking -too- long to be enjoyable.

Is there anything in particular that seems to take the most time?
-- Do you have a lot of misses? If so, the monsters may be able the party level or the party is underequipped in terms of magic item bonuses, or the party is simply not working together (tactics for flanking bonuses, aid another, etc)
-- Do you have to stop and reference rules often? (if so, maybe make a standing rule that you'll make decisions on the fly if it takes more than 1 page of look up) and then will look at it closer later after the game for future instances)
-- Are people adding up attack bonuses each time or do they have them precalculated on their sheets? (they shouldn't be pausing to do "stat + proficiency bonus + enchantment + whatever during their turn, they should have those common attack bonuses pre-calculated)
-- is there lots of "hmm.." going on during a persons turn? if so, always have the next person ready to go (i.e. "John, you're up now - Jane, you're up nex, start planning your action")
-- Are these PCs that you've played with for a while and leveled up with? Or are these relatively new PCs that you've recently started using (in which case, there is the learning curve of getting to know the powers and syngeries)
-- Is there a single player who takes the most time? If so, shoot him. (kidding!) But more seriously, is there a particular -player- (lots of indecisiveness) or a particular -character- (lots of area attacks and zones that take extra planning decisions)? If so, see if there is a way to streamline that particular player or character (there are ways to do that and be nice about it -- obviously, you don't need to be a jerk here, just try to find stuff that makes things simpler)
-- are the combats fairly "even" or is it really just the PCs taking down the monsters bit bit bit with little danger to themselves? If it's just a "grind" then stuff like adjusting monster hit points slightly is a good trick (more so because you have a 4 PC party, those monsters are built to take a beating from 5 PC parties).

I personally find that if it's a lot of -rounds- it's often a balance issue (the PCs can't hit the enmies for some reason, or something to that effect); but it's taking a lot of -real time- then it's an issue with the players not knowing their PCs well enough or taking too long to decide actions or getting distracted by side conversations. Not that any of that is 'wrong' (it all depends on how casual your games are and if you're all still having fun, etc).

 

[Jack99]

I'm considering, instead of reducing monster hit points, just decreasing their defenses and increasing their attack bonuses by 2. Missing is boring, especially since players typically spend 95% of their turn figuring out what they're going to do, and only 5% of the time rolling to accomplish it. If you're missing on even a third of your attacks, you're wasting a lot of time.

Once you get players who know their powers, pay attention to the battle map, and are willing to do what sounds like a good idea instead of agonizing over the perfect tactical option, there aren't many other ways to speed up combat aside from house rules.

I never understood this approach. If you make it too easy to hit, where is the fun in hitting?

 

[Amaroq]

Here's what our group has found helps:

1. Dry-erase markers, a draw-upon battlemap, and minis
Its quicker and easier to calculate things when they're visible.

2. Dry-erase whiteboard upon which to track Initiative order, damage dealt to bad guys, ongoing status effects, marks, etc.
We're at the point where bad guys often get three or four status effects against them when you include marks, weakens, combat advantages, etc - plus just jotting damage down real quick, and having people be able to glance at the board to answer questions like who has taken the most damage, who is bloodied, etc .. really helps people plan their move before their turn starts. It helps that our players can see the init, and start thinking about their next move when they are 'on deck' .. as a DM, you might try using the phrase "you're up" and "you're on deck" to get people to start thinking ahead of time instead of just watching the action.

3. Printed out Character Builder sheets.
Sounds obvious, but its a big help. We keep right on using the dry-erase markers: each players has their character in a 3-ring binder. The binders have plastic sleeves into which the character-sheets go. Hit points, temporary modifiers to defenses, status effects, etc, get written on the plastic sleeves; powers get crossed off as they get used. Its a very visual way of seeing what options you have left, and its very quick to "clean up" between encounters.

4. Enemies run away.
Not every enemy needs to fight the party to the death. Really. A 'smart' BBEG is going to run when the fight has gone against him .. and it can actually be massively satisfying to beat him after facing him two or three times. Similarly, most of the rank-and-file will break if they're bloodied and the BBEG is down. In fact, I tend to set a "break and run" trigger for each monster-group when I'm writing the encounter; it means combats can be a little tougher than level-appropriate .. if the bad guys 'crumble' when a key linchpin goes down.

5. No helping. Period.
Seriously. Our veteran players do NOT bog the game down by pointing out to the newbie how she could get one more guy in her close-blast, or whatever ... they let her do her action, rather than running a five-minute conversation about the many different options which just confuse her all the more. Yeah, they all cringed when she burned an Encounter power to dust a Minion this session. She'll learn. And the party still won the fight.
(Folks do chip in the 'Oh, and +1 from our battle standard', or whatever, if they notice that somebody missed something.)

6. DM monster sheets
Print out each monster's stat block. Or have it available on PC / in the module / etc, before each combat. We've got a couple plastic "stands" which you can slip a sheet of paper or two into, so the DM have the monsters right there in front of him. Its a quick glance to spot AC, Fort, Ref, Wil, bloodied value, etc .. and he can use those dry-erase markers on the stands to cross off powers as they get used, or re-rolled.

7. Cheat sheets
Its kinda like DM's screens, but .. we handed out cheat sheets with the things you can do on your turn, which type of action is required to do which Skill check in combat, what the various status effects are ... Pretty much, every player should have these at their fingertips at any time in any battle, so there's no looking up in books, asking, etc. That goes right back to the "decide what you're doing before its your turn" concept - it only works if you know the rules, or can reasonably be expected to have found the rules before your turn came up.

. . .

Wow, when I first started typing this up, I didn't think there was much of a "trick" to it .. but I guess playing rpg's for 20+ years does give you a real repertoire of tricks; each of those mentioned really does shave a considerable chunk of time off of each encounter.