BDKR1 The Unofficial Living Greyhawk Bandit Kingdoms Summary

Big Mac

Explorer
Well, I've never seen the author's Facebook page. According to his Canonfire! profile, it's found here, but when I go there now Facebook can't find it.

I see his page. Perhaps you need to be a friend of a friend to see it.:erm:

The claims I was referring to were on the first page of the Piazza thread that Big Mac linked to above.

As a result of the complaint my thread, at The Piazza, has been locked and moved to The Black Pudding.

Casey Brown at Facebook said:
Just to clarify, the initial letter WOTC's lawyer sent to CreateSpace, my publisher, was a DMCA notice. I have replied today and I am still confident that I have not infringed upon WOTC's IP. I look forward to working with them amicably and quickly to get this situation resolved.

It would seem that the earlier comments (mine) about a C&D letter was mistaken.

This is a DMCA notice from WotC to CreateSpace. As CreateSpace provide the printed products to Amazon the threat to them has taken down both sources of printed product.

I don't really understand why they have not issued a DMCA notice against Amazon's Kindle version.:-S
 

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vvincent

Explorer
WotC withdraws the DCMA takedown notice

Per Casey Brown on the Canonfire Facebook group:

"Wizards withdrew their DCMA notice today. the book will be back up for sale shortly. Thanks to all those who refused to think the sky was falling"

"Today" being the May 15, 2012

Yay for Casey.



Vernon L. Vincent
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Per Casey Brown on the Canonfire Facebook group:

"Wizards withdrew their DCMA notice today. the book will be back up for sale shortly. Thanks to all those who refused to think the sky was falling"

"Today" being the May 15, 2012

Yay for Casey.



Vernon L. Vincent

Woot! That's great news! Here's to Casey's victory against the WotC oppressors! But seriously though, I'm glad WotC withdrew their DMCA notice - I can't wait for the next two volumes!
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Woot! That's great news! Here's to Casey's victory against the WotC oppressors! But seriously though, I'm glad WotC withdrew their DMCA notice - I can't wait for the next two volumes!
I have a soft spot for Greyhawk and the Bandit Kingdoms. It'll be interesting to see the work he's done.
 

aurdraco

Explorer
Thanks to those who didn't doubt (long)

Greetings,

As the author of the so-called "controversial" work in question, I would just like to confirm what Vernon said: as of yesterday, Wizards of the Coast officially notified myself and my publisher, CreateSpace, that they were withdrawing the DMCA Notice that they had placed against my book. The title is already back up for sale via the CreateSpace store and will, I imagine, be back up for sale via Amazon within another day or so (not sure why that transition is slow, Amazon owns CreateSpace). Please note that the Kindle Edition is available as well. In fact, it was never targeted as part of the DMCA Notice.

I would like to thank everyone who believed in my efforts during this pleasantly brief and amicable review by WotC's lawyers. As a graduate student in Emerson College's Publishing & Writing program, I fully support publishers' rights to defend their intellectual property. I bear WotC no ill will and wish to thank them for the speed with which they reviewed both my work and the arguments towards its legality that I had presented to them. As I always maintained, I had done my research and I was positive that my work was legal. Anything else that I have ever said that could be interpreted differently would be a case either of someone misunderstanding my words or me not being clear enough. Legal mumbo jumbo is (usually) best left to the lawyers.

Please note that the cover is undergoing slight revision in order to enhance some DPI issues and the interior file will be receiving a brief addendum detailing the legal process the book just went through. As a result, the title may not be available for sale for a few days after those files are uploaded to CreateSpace and Kindle Direct Publishing later this evening. I find it odd that CreateSpace and KDP cannot leave the previous edition up for sale while the next is being reviewed by them but *shrug* it's beyond my control. A simple toggle switch of "Would you like to keep the current edition available while we review this one?" would be an improvement to their processes, imo. For those looking to order copies in the near future, I ask for your patience while these review processes are completed.

I have sent Michael of Neuroglyph games a copy of the book and eagerly await his review, if he feels the work worthy of such, on this site. If any other book reviewers are interested in obtaining a review copy, please PM me your name, company/site name, email address, and address and I will consider the request.

* * * * *

Regarding how the book came to WotC's attention, I care not one whit at all. I always knew that it would and planned for such (after all, Britt Frey, former Living Greyhawk Circle member and contributor to my book, is Facebook friends with WotC employee Chris Tulach [and probably others]). HOWEVER, the person who publicly claimed to have brought the book to WotC's attention has also publicly stated (The Piazza • View topic - Living Greyhawk/Bandit Kingdoms book has been published!):

Chatdemon said:
In order to preserve the community and prevent a massive crackdown by WotC, I was the one who reported the violation to them, resulting in the C&D. Further contact is planned to deal with the sites and groups within the community that are encouraging this blatant IP theft and similar book piracy that is going on.

Emphasis mine. I expect Chatdemon/Rich to make a public apology on every forum in which he used similar language to disparage my work. He did so WITHOUT having read it or knowing the legal situations involved. At the least, his words were arrogant and ignorant.

* * * * *

With 31 regions, there was a VAST amount of material created for the Living Greyhawk campaign during its 8-year run. It is my belief that, since the 80s, there was never another time when so many people were playing in Greyhawk. Alas, WotC's decision to move forward with 4th edition spelled the end of the campaign. As they are unlikely, imo, to organize efforts such as mine (quite frankly, they probably wouldn't sell enough copies to justify their time and expense), the burden falls on those of us who served as volunteer campaign administrators to preserve the legacy of Living Greyhawk. Although it has been nearly four years since the end of the Living Greyhawk campaign, I hope that my book's example will encourage other past-Triad and Circle members to compile similar documents for their regions and meta-regions and I encourage any who wish to do so to contact me regarding my experiences with this project.

* * * * *

There were some interesting questions about the work brought up in this thread which I’d like to address.

This is the second time it went out of print. It also went out of print on the 25th of April. But that time the message from CreateSpace was different.

I had uploaded the second edition (final typo corrections) to CreateSpace at that time. While Skip and I worked very hard to find every typo before the book went live, we missed a few. As I have learned in grad school, that's not that unusual. The beauty of Print on Demand is that you can usually update your book with corrections very quickly.

I haven't read the work itself, and that makes commenting on it uncertain. However, I've read the description of the product, and I've read many posts by the author. The author has many misconceptions as to how copyright (and trademark) work, and I've been told (objection! hearsay!) that he believes this is a clear case of educational fair use. Besides the dangers generally of relying on fair use, I don't see how he falls under the definitions provided by the guidelines, and (again, hearsay) he appears to be quite arrogant in his belief that he's right (ignoring what lawyers have told him), suggesting he's going to press this issue in court.

Emphasis again mine. In the end, I was right in my beliefs that my work was legal—my apparent misconceptions as to how copyright (and trademark) work notwithstanding. Perhaps one day I’ll release the communications that occurred between me and WotC’s lawyers as a case study for Frylock to examine (after he has purchased a copy of the book, naturally :p).

Oh, also, my Kickstarter comments were totally tongue-in-cheek, just as Vincent’s had been. Lost in transmission if you don’t know me, I guess. I sometimes forget that lawyers don’t have much of a sense of humor (that’s a joke, please don’t sue me!).

The fact that Frylock and others followed the Canonfire FB thread served as an excellent reminder that my work might have some sort of interest and impact greater than the sum of its LG BK parts, interest I hadn't really anticipated. This was really just a vanity project that I decided to publish instead of sending to The Oerth Journal for various reasons. I will leave the historical significance discussions, if any, to future scholars. (Can you tell I had to read a lot of academic books on Shakespeare and Chaucer this semester? Heh.)

As for my commentary on it:

I think you had to be there. I think this book would probably rewarm fond memories for the people who wrote the adventures, and presumably the people who played through them.



The one somewhat interesting section for someone who wasn't in this campaign (e.g., me) is the 10-page "Timeline of Major Bandit Kingdom Events". I'm not sure these 10 pages are worth the $10 I gave Amazon, but it's definitely worth reading. Some of the ideas here really made me smile, about connections to other parts of the wide world of Greyhawk. It sounds like the BK LG people had a good, fun campaign.

Examples:
-- Alhaster and Prince Zeech references, hinting at a connection to the Age of Worms Adventure Path from WOTC.

-- Canceri plane references, hinting a connection to the Shackled City Adventure Path from WOTC

-- References to Tharizdun, Hextor, the Horned Society, Rovers of the Barrens, Shield Lands, lots of good stuff.

At the end of day, I doubt I will use much if anything from the timeline, but it was a fun read. :)

I’m glad you enjoyed it! The book was definitely initially targeted at a very small audience, those who played Living Greyhawk Bandit Kingdoms adventures. I was hoping that a few others who hadn’t might find the book interesting and, more importantly perhaps, useful. I’m particularly proud of the Timeline as I think it provides the first comprehensive view of what was occurring in the region during the Greyhawk Wars. Of course, most of that is extrapolated from canonical sources as I attempted to answer questions like, “How did Cranzer end up in Riftcrag and Xavendra in Groucester? Why were no Greater Bonehearts present during the sweep across the BK? Why is Aundurach a Lesser Boneheart when we have never heard of him before?” etc. Sometimes, these backstories were buried in various LG BK mods while others I created to make sense of the gaps in Iuz the Evil and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Gygax’s old articles about the BK and Horned Society lands in Dragon really provided the inspiration to flesh out these details.

Re: Age of Worms, as someone else said, it is Paizo-canon, not LG canon. As such, it had no impact on Living Greyhawk’s stories or characters. HOWEVER, at the urging of Britt Frey, we did give a nod to Age of Worms by using the same name they used for Zeech’s brother.

Re: Shackled City, Theo may have been following that adventure path and it may have influenced some ideas he had re: the That Which Slept imprisonment plot arc. More likely, however, is the fact that Carceri is something of a plane of imprisonment, one known for its darkness (a fitting theme since we envisioned That Which Slept’s prison to be made out of shadows and force).

I'm not an IP lawyer but, when I first read the Facebook thread I went right to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. The stuff above particularly named NPC's and named Greyhawk locations I see as copyright protected material.

Keep in mind that it’s one thing to claim IP protection but quite another for it to be actually legally true. Frylock can probably speak to this with more clarity should he choose to. My guess is that this was standard legalese at this time even if it wouldn’t stand up in court. Thus, it served as discouragement without having any real legal teeth. Alternatively, maybe they did have things trademarked back then which they don’t have trademarked now.

* * * * *

Thanks again to those who supported me and for the kind words from those who have read the work and enjoyed it. To those who will purchase the book, I hope you enjoy it!

Hail, Iuz!

aurdraco
 

I’m particularly proud of the Timeline as I think it provides the first comprehensive view of what was occurring in the region during the Greyhawk Wars. Of course, most of that is extrapolated from canonical sources . . . Sometimes, these backstories were buried in various LG BK mods while others I created to make sense of the gaps in Iuz the Evil and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Gygax’s old articles about the BK and Horned Society lands in Dragon really provided the inspiration to flesh out these details.

Nod, you have a right to be proud of the timeline. There's a whole lot going on in there.

Reminds me of the best of the AOL Greyhawk discussion board in the late 1990s (where I first encounter Eric Mona), but it would be well in the 99th percentile for quality of stuff we use to post back then. :cool:

Re: Age of Worms, as someone else said, it is Paizo-canon, not LG canon. As such, it had no impact on Living Greyhawk’s stories or characters. HOWEVER, at the urging of Britt Frey, we did give a nod to Age of Worms by using the same name they used for Zeech’s brother.

For my personal version of Greyhawk, Paizo-hawk is "in" (it's Mona-hawk), but the events of the Adventure Paths haven't happened yet. A PC monk in one party discovered a cryptic library reference to the existence of Cauldron, and another party discovered a gate to the Malachite Fortress (under Cauldron). :)

Lots of stuff is "in" for me -- the Kingdom of the Ghouls (Baur-hawk is another awesome flavor), etc. :)
 

Big Mac

Explorer
A simple toggle switch of "Would you like to keep the current edition available while we review this one?" would be an improvement to their processes, imo. For those looking to order copies in the near future, I ask for your patience while these review processes are completed.

To be honest, I'm glad they disable the ability to buy. I wouldn't want to buy a copy of your Bandit Kingdoms book, only to find out that if I waited six hours I could get one that had less typos and a better cover.

I have sent Michael of Neuroglyph games a copy of the book and eagerly await his review, if he feels the work worthy of such, on this site. If any other book reviewers are interested in obtaining a review copy, please PM me your name, company/site name, email address, and address and I will consider the request.

Maybe I should start doing some more reviews. ;) I've got a few on Amazon.co.uk, and one over at The Piazza, but a blog might be better.

I've got a friend called Megan Robertson that does reviews on a website called RPG Resource. She does very good reviews and was on the panel for the ENnies recently. If you sent her a copy it would be well worth your time.

With 31 regions, there was a VAST amount of material created for the Living Greyhawk campaign during its 8-year run. It is my belief that, since the 80s, there was never another time when so many people were playing in Greyhawk. Alas, WotC's decision to move forward with 4th edition spelled the end of the campaign. As they are unlikely, imo, to organize efforts such as mine (quite frankly, they probably wouldn't sell enough copies to justify their time and expense), the burden falls on those of us who served as volunteer campaign administrators to preserve the legacy of Living Greyhawk. Although it has been nearly four years since the end of the Living Greyhawk campaign, I hope that my book's example will encourage other past-Triad and Circle members to compile similar documents for their regions and meta-regions and I encourage any who wish to do so to contact me regarding my experiences with this project.

I'm certainly hoping for somethihg like that, either via books, free PDFs, websites, wikis or some other medium.

In fact I started writing some threads (at The Piazza's GH forum) about my fantasy LG netbooks for The Sheldomar Valley, Tuf-Fals-Vel Trade Route and Iuz's Border States. I was going to do a complete set of threads, and hopefully find out the pros and cons of each region, but there was some talk of LG metaregions sometimes being a bit illogical and I got a bit discouraged with my fantasy concept. But, even if there might be a better way to organise things, I think I might take inspiration from the LG: Bandit Kingdoms book and complete my set of hypothetical books.

If I'm very lucky, I might even get to meet some of the people from the LG UK Triad one day. :cool:

I had uploaded the second edition (final typo corrections) to CreateSpace at that time. While Skip and I worked very hard to find every typo before the book went live, we missed a few. As I have learned in grad school, that's not that unusual. The beauty of Print on Demand is that you can usually update your book with corrections very quickly.

Aha! I thought it might be a response to a peak in demand, but this makes a lot of sense.

One thing that dismays me about D&D books is that they get rare and then bandits (not your sort of bandits) start trying to charge hundreds of dollars or pounds for them on eBay. I just want to (legally) get the books I'm missing and people like that annoy me. So I thought that the idea of PoD, where the book never goes out of print, would mean that it gains no "collectors" value. But if you are stopping and starting your book (to fix typos) that kind of means that you are on the second or third (or maybe even forth) printing by now. I don't know what that will (eventually) mean in the collectors market, but if someone is foolish enough to want to pay extra for the version with no message about the WotC DCMA notice withdrawal, I'll be happy for them to have that and for me to have the one with the more pretty cover. ;)

Perhaps one day I’ll release the communications that occurred between me and WotC’s lawyers as a case study for Frylock to examine (after he has purchased a copy of the book, naturally :p).

Spoken like a true door-to-door Bandit Kingdom book salesman!;)

The fact that Frylock and others followed the Canonfire FB thread served as an excellent reminder that my work might have some sort of interest and impact greater than the sum of its LG BK parts, interest I hadn't really anticipated. This was really just a vanity project that I decided to publish instead of sending to The Oerth Journal for various reasons. I will leave the historical significance discussions, if any, to future scholars. (Can you tell I had to read a lot of academic books on Shakespeare and Chaucer this semester? Heh.)

I thought this was an interesting idea as soon as I heard of it, but I hope this does not mean that everyone writing for The Oerth Journal switches to selling their stuff and The Oerth Journal dries up. :eek:

Re: Age of Worms, as someone else said, it is Paizo-canon, not LG canon. As such, it had no impact on Living Greyhawk’s stories or characters. HOWEVER, at the urging of Britt Frey, we did give a nod to Age of Worms by using the same name they used for Zeech’s brother.

If things had been different, it would have been good to have seen a Paizo/RPGA licence that allowed Paizo to buy the best expired RPGA adventures and publish a Living Greyhawk annual for each metaregion. Something like that could have allowed them to fold the adventures of willing authors into Paizo-hawk canon.

Keep in mind that it’s one thing to claim IP protection but quite another for it to be actually legally true. Frylock can probably speak to this with more clarity should he choose to. My guess is that this was standard legalese at this time even if it wouldn’t stand up in court. Thus, it served as discouragement without having any real legal teeth. Alternatively, maybe they did have things trademarked back then which they don’t have trademarked now.

I said a while ago (at my thread on The Piazza) that I thought this unofficial Bandit Kingdoms book falls into the same area as [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Slayer-Totally-Unofficial-Guide-Buffy/dp/0753505533"]Slayer: The Totally Cool Unofficial Guide to Buffy[/ame].

I stand by that remark. I think that there is a way for books like this to be legal, but I also think that there is a line and that anyone that does not do their homework should avoid getting egged on by fans that want cool stuff (and that maybe don't have an awareness of what can and can't be done). I think that this book got past the DMCA notice only because it was carefully reviewed by legal people before it was published. I hope to see more Living Greyhawk material come back in some form. But I wouldn't want to see someone skip the legal research and get into trouble.

EDIT: Thanks for getting CreateSpace to start selling this to Amazon.co.uk!
 
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aurdraco

Explorer
To be honest, I'm glad they disable the ability to buy. I wouldn't want to buy a copy of your Bandit Kingdoms book, only to find out that if I waited six hours I could get one that had less typos and a better cover.

Sure, but what if the process takes 20 hours for the CreateSpace store and several days for Amazon? What if the changes are so minor that no one would ever notice? Authors should at least have the option.

I've got a friend called Megan Robertson that does reviews on a website called RPG Resource. She does very good reviews and was on the panel for the ENnies recently. If you sent her a copy it would be well worth your time.

Thanks for the lead, I'll check out her site.

I thought this was an interesting idea as soon as I heard of it, but I hope this does not mean that everyone writing for The Oerth Journal switches to selling their stuff and The Oerth Journal dries up. :eek:

I doubt this is a concern--my project is just of such a larger scope than, I would guess, almost all OJ submissions that it made more sense for me to self-publish. While I had talked in the past with the editors of the OJ about them publishing this book (perhaps spread out over several issues or maybe as a special OJ edition or add-on), unfortunately the OJ's current publication speed is far too slow at this time for this to interest me. Ten, five, or even three, years ago, I might not have felt the same way--the advent of print on demand (and its lowering costs) means it is now well-suited for self-publishing and certainly played a factor in my decision.

EDIT: Thanks for getting CreateSpace to start selling this to Amazon.co.uk!

Whoa, that's crazy, the book is available on Amazon.co.uk before Amazon.com (still not back up yet). Glad you don't have to order one shipped from the States!

aurdraco
 

Frylock

Explorer
Misinformation and Misunderstanding

I sometimes forget that lawyers don’t have much of a sense of humor (that’s a joke, please don’t sue me!).

I'm not your typical attorney, and one of the ways in which I stand out is that I do have a healthy sense of humor, so much so that some people can't handle it. I didn't read your Kickstarter comments (unless they were reproduced in the Facebook thread), but I'm sure any problems with translation are a reflection of the nature of online (and print, generally) media rather than the reader's sense of humor. Similarly, you may have taken greater offense to criticism than was intended, or people may have misunderstood what you wrote. It's tough writing online, especially when people like me are criticized for encouraging better language skills as being too rigid or nerdy.

Nevertheless, I'll probably sue you anyway. It's what I do. What's your address? I have to mail you something. :)

Keep in mind that it’s one thing to claim IP protection but quite another for it to be actually legally true. Frylock can probably speak to this with more clarity should he choose to. My guess is that this was standard legalese at this time even if it wouldn’t stand up in court. Thus, it served as discouragement without having any real legal teeth.

The statement, "Any other use of this telecast or any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent is prohibited," is, in many cases, a lie.

My guess is that if WotC doesn't pursue this, it's because much of what you've copied would arguably infringe the copyrights of the adventure authors, who (as far as I know) never assigned the copyrights to their creations to WotC. The work-for-hire doctrine is inapplicable to much (if not all) of what living campaigns produce, so some of the material belongs to WotC, some of it belongs to the adventure writers, and some of it is public domain (e.g., the mere concept of an elf). Whether someone has a reasonable argument of infringement can be quite complex when addressing these materials, and whether WotC sees it as being in their best interest to sue you even if you did infringe their work further complicates their decision. This is why no one can make a definitive statement about whether there's actually copyright infringement here. Most of us either lack the facts (e.g., me) or the knowledge of copyright law (e.g., [list too long; will break ENWorld]) to form knowledgeable opinions.

Alternatively, maybe they did have things trademarked back then which they don’t have trademarked now.

I suggest you hop over to Loremaster.org and read my IP primer. It appears from this statement, and the one you quoted on the Facebook thread, that you think trademark rights don't exist in materials unless they're registered federally. That's not true. Federal registration is a great idea, but it isn't necessary, especially for a company that does business at almost every point in the United States (though companies that large can afford to register most of their trademarks, so they often do anyway). This isn't a dangerous misconception, but if you're curious as to how IP works, the article is a good start.

One last note. I'm happy if this issue is truly resolved. Much of the materials gamers use are fan-written. WotC can't possibly produce all the good material out there. However, there are certainly plenty of instances where the market is harmed by true infringement. Infringement sucks, because it cuts into WotC's profits. If WotC, et al. can't make a profit, WotC will no longer produce D&D. Who wants that? Whether you believe WotC has done enough to embrace online publication (I don't think they have) is irrelevant. There are certain third-party publications that are, and should be, illegal, and thus damage all of us as consumers. If someone has a concern and brings it to WotC's attention, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. I wouldn't be so harsh on someone who sees his hobby threatened by potentially unscrupulous 3PPs. After all, the quote above was accusing you only of "encouraging" infringement, and that might be true even if what you did is perfectly legal. Did you even attempt to contact WotC before publishing this work? If you had, I can assure you from personal experience that it wouldn't have helped -- their legal department won't answer any questions, even, "Is the sky blue?" -- but at least you'd have had the moral high ground to say, "I tried," and you couldn't (fairly) be accused of even encouraging infringement. Just a thought.
 

aurdraco

Explorer
Nevertheless, I'll probably sue you anyway. It's what I do. What's your address? I have to mail you something. :)

I literally laughed out loud on the Boston subway when I read that comment. Got funny looks for it. Thanks for lightening this thread up!

My guess is that if WotC doesn't pursue this, it's because much of what you've copied would arguably infringe the copyrights of the adventure authors, who (as far as I know) never assigned the copyrights to their creations to WotC.

Ok, I think I am beginning to see why I think you are confused: my book doesn't copy anything. WotC approached it, I believe, as if I had somehow reproduced 113 LG adventures in 90 pages. Obviously, that's ludicrous: the average page count for a BK adventure was roughly 40 pages. What I have done, in essence, is create a catalog of the adventures with some additional commentary on them provided by me. However, unlike most catalogs, I am not attempting to sell or distribute the adventures (I don't have the necessary rights to do that for adventures I didn't write).

I'll check out those links re: trademarks and copyright issues, thanks for posting them.

After all, the quote above was accusing you only of "encouraging" infringement, and that might be true even if what you did is perfectly legal.

I'm going to have to disagree with that interpetation: IMO, Chatdemon/Rich is clearly stating that my book, which he had not even read (by his own admission on a #greytalk session), is the "blatant IP theft and similar book piracy" that various sites and groups are encouraging. As my book is not a blatant theft of IP nor a book piracy, I feel he should apologize.

One last note. I'm happy if this issue is truly resolved.

Thanks! As I've said, as a grad student in Publishing & Writing, I fully support authors' and publishers' rights to defend their IP, including WotC.
 

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