Beowulf Malign Warlord

[Garthanos]

I have been considering that Hector Warlord ie controller build as a warlord but this guy is something different.

The character is arguably enabling himself to gain insight and bonus effectiveness discovering vulnerabilities and limitations of an enemy based on the sacrifice of minion allies... an perhaps along side that one could have the ability that allowed an enemy to gain advantage on an ally but enabled you to do serious wampum in the process. "Oh yeah we are a team all right you come in handy"

This could be a sort of delayed striker style noble... flavored differently it might have elements of the retaliatory defender (you hurt my friends now I hurt you) and those minions could be zealots religious or political with you as a revered leader and some would be sacrificing to defend you making you tougher in effect ... heck they make you seem so important that maybe enemies often ignore your other allies.

... or perhaps more accurately Beowulf is engaging in a Martial practice.... gaining the benefit over time and to gain a protracted benefit fighting a specific enemy.... kind of like "Scanning the Enemies Vulnerabilities" with the ability based on watching the subject kill/fight a given number of times based on their level. D&D doesnt exactly encourage repeat battles with long term enemies ie its situational.

 

[Tony Vargas]

. "Oh yeah we are a team all right you come in handy"

So, a sort of inverse leader? He gains power from allies' help and sacrifices? That'd be a striker (in 4e, Leaders & Defenders have features that only work with & benefit allies; Controllers can actually make better use of some of their stuff with no allies to get in the way; only Strikers strictly benefit from allies but contribute little/nothing to help allies out or even take advantage from allies). The Dark Pact Warlock, for instance, does one or two things like that.

This could be a sort of delayed striker style noble... flavored differently it might have elements of the retaliatory defender (you hurt my friends now I hurt you) and those minions could be zealots religious or political with you as a revered leader and some would be sacrificing to defend you making you tougher in effect ... heck they make you seem so important that maybe enemies often ignore your other allies.

Disposeable allies could be minions, summons, or even little more than 'mirror images' that help you set-up and evade enemies. They could be a 'striker feature' that lets you do more damage while they're there to flank or pile onto an enemy - but also moar damage via 'how the monster works' red-shirt sacrifice when the monster does try to get rid of them.

... or perhaps more accurately Beowulf is engaging in a Martial practice.... gaining the benefit over time and to gain a protracted benefit fighting a specific enemy.... kind of like "Scanning the Enemies Vulnerabilities" with the ability based on watching the subject kill/fight a given number of times based on their level. D&D doesnt exactly encourage repeat battles with long term enemies ie its situational.

The Martial Practice could be a flashback - you find out about the enemy beforehand, recount a story of a past encounter with it (or a similar one) and you and your allies gain a benefit - or it could require you engage the same enemy repeatedly to gain full benefits.

 

[Garthanos]

So, a sort of inverse leader? He gains power from allies' help and sacrifices? That'd be a striker (in 4e, Leaders & Defenders have features that only work with & benefit allies; Controllers can actually make better use of some of their stuff with no allies to get in the way; only Strikers strictly benefit from allies but contribute little/nothing to help allies out or even take advantage from allies). The Dark Pact Warlock, for instance, does one or two things like that.

Disposeable allies could be minions, summons, or even little more than 'mirror images' that help you set-up and evade enemies. They could be a 'striker feature' that lets you do more damage while they're there to flank or pile onto an enemy - but also moar damage via 'how the monster works' red-shirt sacrifice when the monster does try to get rid of them.

Yes a minion summoner class ... there is potentially "Conscripting" the martial practice. , which is minion summoning ritual

The Martial Practice could be a flashback - you find out about the enemy beforehand, recount a story of a past encounter with it (or a similar one) and you and your allies gain a benefit - or it could require you engage the same enemy repeatedly to gain full benefits.

Sure either could work the idea could work for a similar enough enemy.

There is also the practice Often used in Arena Fighting of "I am not left handed" ie reduce your apparent awesomeness but also cloak them techniques... so an enemy you expect to see again doesnt have a solid handle on your capablity or underestimates you leaving an opening (in more short turn use as part of a combat bluff)

 

[Garthanos]

So, a sort of inverse leader? He gains power from allies' help and sacrifices? That'd be a striker .

Yes the idea definitely a Striker... but one with martial minion flavor... We have been discussing the controller enough but this makes some fair sense too

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is also the practice Often used in Arena Fighting of "I am not left handed" ie reduce your apparent awesomeness but also cloak them techniques... so an enemy you expect to see again doesnt have a solid handle on your capablity or underestimates you leaving an opening (in more short turn use as part of a combat bluff)

Well, this is a whole area that 4e really NEVER explored, which was "take a penalty now to get a bonus later". It can be quite simple and straightforward, you get a -1 to attack rolls this round and a +1 next round. Clearly you can leverage this into an overall tactical advantage without undo mental strain. There were a couple of 4e feats that skirted the edge of it, the Power Attack concept basically, but it could be done to a much higher degree.

Now, turning it into a practice... well, I don't see that as an issue really. You 'pretend to be left-handed' and whenever you switch back, maybe it has to be after a certain number of rounds, you get a bonus instead of a penalty. While it works well as a utility power, it can work as a practice. However, I wonder if its really something that comes up again and again in the sense that you actually get to practice it a lot of times. Maybe this kind of thing is better left as a generalized application of Bluff (again, I apply my 'All checks are part of conflicts' principle, in this case the Bluffing phase of the conflict is later followed by the surprise reversal component, which can effectively be modeled as a success in an SC).

So, I might cast this as a much more general kind of practice. Something like a general ability to conceal your prowess in some specific field that generates the Narrative logic for Bluff checks. Its pure combat application becomes what you've already outlined. It can then have other versions that work for 'using your wits' etc.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, this is a whole area that 4e really NEVER explored, which was "take a penalty now to get a bonus later". It can be quite simple and straightforward, you get a -1 to attack rolls this round and a +1 next round. Clearly you can leverage this into an overall tactical advantage without undo mental strain. There were a couple of 4e feats that skirted the edge of it, the Power Attack concept basically, but it could be done to a much higher degree.

Now, turning it into a practice... well, I don't see that as an issue really. You 'pretend to be left-handed' and whenever you switch back, maybe it has to be after a certain number of rounds, you get a bonus instead of a penalty. While it works well as a utility power, it can work as a practice. However, I wonder if its really something that comes up again and again in the sense that you actually get to practice it a lot of times. Maybe this kind of thing is better left as a generalized application of Bluff (again, I apply my 'All checks are part of conflicts' principle, in this case the Bluffing phase of the conflict is later followed by the surprise reversal component, which can effectively be modeled as a success in an SC).

So, I might cast this as a much more general kind of practice. Something like a general ability to conceal your prowess in some specific field that generates the Narrative logic for Bluff checks. Its pure combat application becomes what you've already outlined. It can then have other versions that work for 'using your wits' etc.

Yeh I like the flavor a lot getting it to work in relatively standard way... yes i see the utility power angle pretty strongly for the combat context...

I am wondering if learning practice X... gets you access to utility power Y which you can swap out with another utility power -- might be an interesting route to go.

We would have more development of utility powers that way.

I collapsed pole vaulting as just a tool use benefit on a jumping skill but.... given the value of navigating moors bogs and stuff explicitly enumerated for the practice then pole vault (a mighty leap) for the utility hmmmm

Yes wasnt that your thinking where a practice or ritual might have other things associated?

 

[Garthanos]

Well, this is a whole area that 4e really NEVER explored, which was "take a penalty now to get a bonus later". It can be quite simple and straightforward, you get a -1 to attack rolls this round and a +1 next round. Clearly you can leverage this into an overall tactical advantage without undo mental strain. There were a couple of 4e feats that skirted the edge of it, the Power Attack concept basically, but it could be done to a much higher degree.

Now, turning it into a practice... well, I don't see that as an issue really. You 'pretend to be left-handed' and whenever you switch back, maybe it has to be after a certain number of rounds, you get a bonus instead of a penalty. While it works well as a utility power, it can work as a practice. However, I wonder if its really something that comes up again and again in the sense that you actually get to practice it a lot of times. Maybe this kind of thing is better left as a generalized application of Bluff (again, I apply my 'All checks are part of conflicts' principle, in this case the Bluffing phase of the conflict is later followed by the surprise reversal component, which can effectively be modeled as a success in an SC).

So, I might cast this as a much more general kind of practice. Something like a general ability to conceal your prowess in some specific field that generates the Narrative logic for Bluff checks. Its pure combat application becomes what you've already outlined. It can then have other versions that work for 'using your wits' etc.

Yeh I like the flavor a lot getting it to work in relatively standard way... yes i see the utility power angle pretty strongly for the combat context...

I am wondering if learning practice X... gets you access to utility power Y which you can swap out with another utility power -- might be an interesting route to go.

We would have more development of utility powers that way.

I collapsed pole vaulting as just a tool use benefit on a jumping skill but.... given the value of navigating moors bogs and stuff explicitly enumerated for the practice then pole vault (a mighty leap) for the utility hmmmm

Yes wasnt that your thinking where a practice or ritual might have other things associated?

 

[Garthanos]

Yes a minion summoner class ... there is potentially "Conscripting" the martial practice. , which is minion summoning ritual

pucker nuts that is something 4e didnt develop isnt it...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeh I like the flavor a lot getting it to work in relatively standard way... yes i see the utility power angle pretty strongly for the combat context...

I am wondering if learning practice X... gets you access to utility power Y which you can swap out with another utility power -- might be an interesting route to go.

We would have more development of utility powers that way.

I collapsed pole vaulting as just a tool use benefit on a jumping skill but.... given the value of navigating moors bogs and stuff explicitly enumerated for the practice then pole vault (a mighty leap) for the utility hmmmm

Yes wasnt that your thinking where a practice or ritual might have other things associated?

Right, well, the way HoML works is you can compose a boon that provides multiple benefits (that usually makes it a major boon, gain a level when you get this). So, I was thinking about maybe some kind of 'Dirty Trickster' sort of boon (as one flavor at least) that would have a utility power of the 'take a -1 now, get a +1 later' variety, and a practice that would be a bit more generalized, say where if someone observes you for a time while you're putting them on then later you can pop some sort of benefit as a surprise move. Maybe that part works like "take the penalty against opponent A and get the benefit later against B" or something. I wrote up one attempt at it, but I want to work on it more.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

pucker nuts that is something 4e didnt develop isnt it...

Not very much, no. There are a few spells that conjure up basically minions, but its not exactly a theme. Certainly seems workable. Make them mostly Encounter powers, so every fight the character drops his minions onto the board, usually early on, and then uses his other powers to do 'stuff' with them.

Lets see....


You could have minion popping that grants benefits to allies, or damages enemies.

You could have minion fortifying that makes them actually tough.

Attacks made via minions.

Minion sacrifice for defensive benefits.

Obvious utility uses of minions.

It certainly seems like a rich vein of viable mechanical concepts. I have a bit harder time with the story/flavor aspects. I mean, what are these minions? They almost MUST be supernatural, since they logically need to be able to pop up pretty much anywhere regardless of circumstances.

Beyond that, I start to see this sort of mechanical construction as "powers that replace story". I feel like getting a bunch of NPCs to serve you and be your 'minions' (in the non-game-technical sense of the word) is a job for role-play and just turning it into the exercise of a few powers seems like not the ideal way to go.

I like the idea of 'companions' mechanically. Its more of a level of some mechanics to support what you actually wanted to do. So the Beast Master ranger is cool, he wants to have an animal sidekick and now its afforded a mechanical basis. If it dies the character can get another one, but its somewhat non-trivial and works by a story type of mechanism. The Fey Beast Tamer is pretty much in the same boat, though the "your beast vanishes into the Feywild and you have to summon it back" is a BIT gamist it still basically works.

Now, I think there's definitely room for a class that is flavored to work with minion summoning. I'm not sure its a Warlord though. Some variation of a Shaman or Warlock really comes to mind, though several other possibilities are pretty easy to come up with. They all share the same central concept though, the minions are some form of spirit, magical creature, etc.

Finally, for a specific sort of NPC this could work fine. An NPC 'warlord' who is literally a warlord, a guy with 100's of faceless soldier minions that he can bring into play whenever needed works fine as long as the NPC is in his context where logically these minions are around. OTOH there's little reason to go to those lengths with an NPC, you can simply build encounters so that minions show up when called for. So its not like its a really deep tool there.

Still, the mechanical viability of the whole concept is high, so it does beg for some sort of use!