D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[DaveDash]

@DaveDash how do you get to 15 a round? Any totem barbarian is going to have TWF or Pole arm master to get bins attacks so the difference is d4 vs 2d6 which is 4.5 damage (slightly more because of the reroll feature k GWM which you obviously have) but you hit 65% or so so it's about 4.5

I don't get to 15.

Not all Totem barbarians are guaranteed to have those feats. And now you're getting quite expensive in terms of feats - assuming you probably want to take GWM as well, which is pure awesome combined with Bless.
You could go Human, but then you can't see in the dark and have a whole host of other disadvantages with that.

Again, in a *real* game, I don't think the difference is so 'zomg' as people in here make out.

 

[CapnZapp]

The extra damage for that one BBEG fight is far more important IMO than the extra resistance that Bear Totem gives you.

That extra attack when the Barbarian has frenzied has literally saved us in some really tight situations - an extra ~15 damage or so per round is an extra 45 damage or so per combat. That extra damage output has taken down Dragons, enemy casters, etc at critical moments of a fight and has been instrumental to our parties survival.
Meanwhile in our entire campaign there has been only one time the Berserker Barbarian has come close to death - meaning that 'outlasting' component of the Bear Totem Barbarian is great on paper, but not necessarily great in game. It wouldn't have been a critical factor in our campaign thus far at all, whereas the extra attack has been.
For example, when the enemy Wizard casts fireball on the group, it's not the party barbarian that is in trouble, regardless of whether he takes half or full damage from resistances. It's the other party members that are in dire straights, and thus it becomes MUCH more useful to kill that enemy Wizard ASAP than have more lasting power.

Also Fear and Charm are so common in game. Good luck doing anything as a Totem Barbarian when you can't even get into melee range because of fear.

In our game (Tyranny of Dragons) the Berserker has been the superior choice, especially fighting Dragons. Cast fly on him, let him frenzy, and let him loose.

But now you're comparing a Berserker's extra attack with alternatives without that extra attack.

If you run a featless game, fine. Berserkers (and TWF:ers) are strong there.

But in any game with feats, it is unreasonable to expect the Totem barb not to take a feat to gain a use for his bonus action.

It just skews your entire comparison, Dave.

Beat regards,
Zapp

 

[DaveDash]

But now you're comparing a Berserker's extra attack with alternatives without that extra attack.

If you run a featless game, fine. Berserkers (and TWF:ers) are strong there.

But in any game with feats, it is unreasonable to expect the Totem barb not to take a feat to gain a use for his bonus action.

It just skews your entire comparison, Dave.

Beat regards,
Zapp

You're putting way too much emphasis on this whole bonus action thing and your claiming not getting access to Totem abilities is a 'cost' but discounting other Berserker abilities like immunity to Fear and Charm. The Berserker in our group gets good use out of GWM bonus action on kills for regular fights, yet GWM still aids him with increased base damage when he does frenzy in those hard fights.

Most fights in D&D 5e are pretty easy with one or two really hard fights. For the easy fights, it really doesn't matter who you have along, but for those hard fights I'd rather have a Berserker Barbarian in my group most of the time, especially fighting things like Dragons as an example. Or Vampires. Or Beholders. Or Aboleths. etc...

I see the Berserker as a real "burst" DPR class that comes out to play during the hard fights, but is more muted through-out the rest.

This is why whiteroom theory crafting and 'RAW' mechanical discussions are rather pointless, because you can't factor in all the things that actually happen in a 'regular' game. I see a Berseker Barbarian in our group who to shines in combat, and he is quite often the highest damage dealer by far.
I haven't played or seen a Totem Barbarian in a regular campaign to compare, but I have play tested a heap of them and being feared alone sucks. I had a huge argument a couple of years ago with someone on the old Wizard's board who was complaining that his Totem Barbarian would quite often not be able to participate much in Dragon combats because of fear.

RAW is also dead with 5e. They're never going to errata things or rebalance things because they expect the DM's to just do that. Think exhaustion is too harsh? Make it recover fully on a full rest. I don't see it as a huge issue, as in 'makes the Berserker worthless' compared to other Barbarians, although I do see why people shy away from it.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

Not all Totem barbarians are guaranteed to have those feats. And now you're getting quite expensive in terms of feats - assuming you probably want to take GWM as well, which is pure awesome combined with Bless.
You could go Human, but then you can't see in the dark and have a whole host of other disadvantages with that.

Again, in a *real* game, I don't think the difference is so 'zomg' as people in here make out.

As other posters have mentioned you can safely assume that any barbarian is going to want both feats because PAM is the best way to get extra attacks and reckless attack plus GWM is the best damage boost in the game.

If you're playing without feats or whatever then yeah. It's harder to get bonus attacks - but that's the big complaint about Bezerker. PAM gives you all the goodNess of Frenzy without any levels of exhaustion AND gives you that sweet sweet reaction attack on approach.

The comparison is PAM + Frenzy vs PAM plus wolf totem or bear totem - with no feats that's a more interesting decision to be sure

 

[DaveDash]

As other posters have mentioned you can safely assume that any barbarian is going to want both feats because PAM is the best way to get extra attacks and reckless attack plus GWM is the best damage boost in the game.

If you're playing without feats or whatever then yeah. It's harder to get bonus attacks - but that's the big complaint about Bezerker. PAM gives you all the goodNess of Frenzy without any levels of exhaustion AND gives you that sweet sweet reaction attack on approach.

The comparison is PAM + Frenzy vs PAM plus wolf totem or bear totem - with no feats that's a more interesting decision to be sure

Again, I used to think Bear Totem was awesome, but I don't now. The actual time that resistance comes in handy is rare. Usually it's other party members who are low on HPs who desperately need the fight to end NOW rather than the Barbarian. 90% of damage you're taking is standard B/P/S - at least in my experience.

Meanwhile you've had to spend a feat to get *comparable* damage to the Berserker.
Once you have it, you're arguably better than the Berserker Barbarian for most fights during the day, but still behind by a bit when he Frenzies for that BBEG fight. Having said that, our Berserker Barbarian kills quite a bit using GWM and thus procs the extra attack.

Then as you get higher and higher levels you start running into a lot of fear and charm....

Another thing to consider is once magic items start coming your way you have to pray to the DM for a magical Halberd or some such thing. I don't think there's many magic weapons I've seen in Tyranny of Dragons OR Princes of the Apocalypse that would benefit a PAM wieldier. Whereas I've seen at least one +1 two handed weapons in both modules (Greataxe and Greatsword). It's pretty handy having a Barbarian with a magic weapon when fighting certain monsters.

Now granted, I do fully admit that exhaustion (or more than one level of it) is really bad. Really bad. In our game my Cleric is more than happy to burn a 5th level slot on the Berserker Barb so he can frenzy at least twice a day (disadvantage on skills isn't a big deal - half movement is getting kinda bad though). It's worth it based on the insane damage he can do especially with GWM.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

Meanwhile you've had to spend a feat to get *comparable* damage to the Berserker. And probably a level of Ftr/Rngr to get your STR damage on that attack. What level did you take that [PAM] feat? Being behind by a level also isn't ideal.
Once you have it, you're arguably better than the Berserker Barbarian for most fights during the day, but still behind by a bit when he Frenzies for that BBEG fight.

Taking PAM means you are significantly better than a Berserker DPR wise for the 18 to 24 rounds of combat an adventuring day where the Berserker doesn't Frenzy. That's assuming the Berserker literally never makes a mistake and goes into combat with three levels of exhaustion btw. If you do that, you suck so hard the Wolf Barbarian blows straight past you.

But the wolf guy is ahead even when you frenzy! Because we haven't looked at the party buff aspect of the wolf totem - your Wolf Totem is giving the Paladin ~15 DPR every round from level 6, rising from there. Snick Snick. This is about as much as you get from Frenzy - a bit less I guess if you have GWM and use reckless attack + GWM on every bonus action, but it works every fight instead of 1 to 3 a day. Honestly, real hard to see how the Wolf build isn't flat out better offensively if your party has another multi attacking melee guy.

Do you agree or diagree with [MENTION=6852869]Lillika[/MENTION] who' saying PAM is essential because otherwise you're not competitive as a Beserker! I need the pro Bezerker side to pick what they think the 'best' Beserker build is. It's impossible to debate the shifting sands otherwise.

The problem is like this: Any melee guy who is 'optimal' needs to be using his bonus action to attack every round. A beserker can do this when he frenzies, which is great. But he can only Frenzy a couple of times a day safely due to exhaustion. So for the other 4-6 combats you need another way of generating bonus actions. The best way is PAM or TWF both of which give you an extra attack every round. But if you have PAM or TWF you only get very marginal gains from Frenzy. If Frenzy isn't doing much that is useful you're rarely going to use it because Exhaustion is so bad. If you're not using Frenzy, why not play a Bezerker? Immunity to charm is great, but Wolf Totem is AMAZING at buffing your team mates

I basically think any effective melee build in 5E needs the following three elements: A way to get advantage, a consistent way of generating extra attacks, and some big static damage bonus you can staple onto your attacks. So bottom line I think every Barbarian of any stripe is going to want PAM at a minimum and probably GWM as well.

Another thing to consider is once magic items start coming your way you have to pray to the DM for a magical Halberd or some such thing. I don't think there's many magic weapons I've seen in Tyranny of Dragons OR Princes of the Apocalypse that would benefit a PAM wieldier. Whereas I've seen at least one +1 two handed weapons in both modules (Greataxe and Greatsword). It's pretty handy having a Barbarian with a magic weapon when fighting certain monsters.

Now granted, I do fully admit that exhaustion (or more than one level of it) is really bad. Really bad.

The GM has to give out magic weapons because of how the monsters are designed. No character is immune from 'GM makes encounters you are unable to contribute to, good luck'

 

[Lillika]

Smiles at all the wonderful discussion going on.

Soooo, there have been some great points on both sides of this argument. Before I jump back in, I would like to describe myself somewhat. My motivation is basically this. If someone says X sucks and Y is way better, but in my mind I see them as both good choices depending on the situation and preference, I tend to defend X.

I would like to give props to @RulesJD to pointing out that the lvl 3 Bear totem ability will lead to some dps increase, I hadn't really accounted for that. @DaveDash also pointed out that that GWM and Frenzy is probably the best burst damage Barbarian combos and also showed us from personal account just how beneficial Mindless Rage can be. And earlier even though I did commend on it earlier @The_Furious_Puffin correctly noted that in the right party the lvl 3 Wolf Totem ability is badass, and reminded us that Retaliation is a very long way off at lvl 14.

Where does this leave us, and am I even the right person to try and put my biases aside and looks at both sides of the issue (and is it really possible to put your biases aside)? I will try anyways. The question could be asked which is better? After this is done, then that side could argue that since Y (Totem Warrior) is better than X (Berserker), then X needs a buff to compensate. But something will always be considered better or best, so instead of saying in general Y is better than X, I would rather look at party makeup and show which is the better option in each situation. My thesis is that in some parties, the Totem Warrior will be more effective (bear or wolf at lvl 3), while in other parties the Berserker will be more effective, therefore Y is not better than X all the time.

First, there is a very important spell that really decides the value of Mindless Rage. Calm Emotions is on both the Bard's and Cleric's spell list, if your party has a Bard or Cleric that knows how good this spell is and prepares it and saves it for when it is needed, Mindless Rage is less important. It will immediately end any charm or frightened condition, (granted the Barbarian may still lose his attack depending on the order of initiative).

Second, in a melee heavy party (pretty much any party with 1 or 2 other melee characters, preferably Fighter, Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian). The Wolf Totem lvl 3 ability will most likely be your strongest choice.

Third, if your party has ways of granting advantage, Bless, and or Bardic Inspiration, then GWM will be the default feat of choice. (The only reason that this is relevant is that GWM has more synergy with Berserker than PM).

A few weeks ago I was helping a player in my campaign make a badass Barbarian. He actually wanted to be very tanky, so I naturally thought Totem Warrior Bear. But when we talked about Fear and Charm this lead in the direction of Berserker. It should also be noted that this Barbarian is the only melee character in the group. For example (and I know this is a horrible example), if the parties archer Fighter and the Barbarian fought, to win the archer Fighter would just Menacing Strike (caused the frightened condition) all day. A Totem Barbarian is really screwed in this example, while a Berserker (lvl 6 on up) is not.

So to recap, in any given situation Y will be better than X, in another one X is better than Y. Can we say which is more likely? Probably. But imo figuring out which is better in the given situation is more important.

Edited for my poor wordiness and typos and stuffs.

 

[Lillika]

Oh I completely disregarded personal preference and fun. Regardless of anything I have said in this thread, those 2 factors trump party effectiveness. For me party effectiveness is fun, so I tend to skew my focus to that, but imo either path can be effective, and having fun is the most important part.

 

[Lillika]

oh one more thing to add, if Advantage is already being consistently given in the form of Fairy Fire, Prone (Shield Master) or Entangle for example, then Totem Wolf lvl 3 won't be nearly as effective.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I have never said this.

You never said that you require, when comparing the two barbarians, they share identical feat choices? Even though you agree PAM overlaps with Frenzy on providing a bonus action attack? An overlap that does not exist for the totem build? Are you sure you never said that? And you are equally sure that is still an apples-to-apples comparison, given what I just identified here as unequal impact to the characters?