D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[Lillika]

About exhaustion, yes its kinda bad, ok very bad, but this adds to risk vs reward element of the class. As I have stated before, its the lvl 6 and 14 abilities that really shine for the Frenzied Berserker. IMO Frenzy is all about when it really matters (IE boss fight, or a really really tough fight that might wipe the party), the Frenzied Berserker is best.

 

[Ahglock]

I have one that uses Bear Totem Goliath with Tavern brawler and he has controlled several fights with the grappling

I'm obsessed with that feat and have taken it on every character I've played. Still irritated it doesn't work with a sneak attack but the rules.

 

[RulesJD]

So, you want to require that the two characters make identical choices in feats, even though they were allowed to make a different choice in subclass? Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?


Also, this. I'm not sure you can make your claim of "crippling" stick.

Having played a great deal, and seen all manner of PCs saddled with varying levels of exhaustion, I would not say they were "crippled". "Impacted," sure. But I've seen enough PCs, even with multiple degrees of exhaustion, succeed.

Furthermore, I have never seen exhaustion (of any degree*) cost a player his/her character.



(*Obviously, no one I know has ever reached the final level which results in death. Because that would, of course, do it...)

Obviously haven't played a certain AL module that (after failing a Constitution save) imparted 1d4 levels of exhaustion. What happens immediately after that? Do a Dex save or get potentially swept/throw off a cliff. And then a fight against Gaze Yetis (disadvantaged saves + Restrained). To date it's one of the most lethal fights because of the exhaustion mechanic putting them at disadvantage on Str/Dex saves.

Everyone forgets that Initiative is an ability check, so 1 level of exhaustion = Disadvantage on Initiative for your barbarian. Which means more damage before you can rage (at least until level 7 I think).

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Obviously haven't played a certain AL module that (after failing a Constitution save) imparted 1d4 levels of exhaustion. What happens immediately after that? Do a Dex save or get potentially swept/throw off a cliff. And then a fight against Gaze Yetis (disadvantaged saves + Restrained). To date it's one of the most lethal fights because of the exhaustion mechanic putting them at disadvantage on Str/Dex saves.

I am quite familiar with AL. And AL is its own animal. I would not attribute what it finds to be the norm as... well... the norm.

Look, I've written MYRE adventures for OP. I have one (completely within legal encounter building guidelines) that is a guaranteed TPK every time. It's really not that hard to do. It doesn't make D&D broken when someone devises a particularly nasty way to kill PCs.

Everyone forgets that Initiative is an ability check, so 1 level of exhaustion = Disadvantage on Initiative for your barbarian.

Everyone does not forget that. In fact, everyone I've played with is well aware. So if we are trading anecdotes-as-facts, I can say with equal certainly that: "No one forgets that Initiative is an ability check, so 1 level of exhaustion = Disadvantage on Initiative for your barbarian."

Which means more damage before you can rage (at least until level 7 I think).

Do you even see what you did there? You just assumed the barbarian somehow automatically lost initiative. I have not found disadvantage on initiative* to equate to going last. Evidently YMMV. <shrug>


(*Let alone disadvantage on other checks. Thanks to BA, PCs can still succeed at checks even with disadvantage. Heck, I've seen a PC crit on an attack with disadvantage. More than once.)

 

[Ashrym]

The subclasses should be balanced against each other though. Every reasonable choice in the game should have the same overall utility/empowerment of the player.

You correctly point out that it makes it harder to work out how to fix it (should you nerf Totem, buff Bezerker, nerf both or buff both), but knowing that there is a meaningful discrepancy tells you there is an issue you need to address.



This assumes btw you never misjudge the end of the adventuring day and always get off three Frenzies and never go into a fight with three levels of exhaustion.

Anyway it's fairly easy to go back to his assumptions and put what you're asking for together. What do you think a good level GWM 8 Bezerker build looks like?

I see there was some activity in this thread since last looking. I am all for discussing the build in a bit. I just wanted to answer your question and state that variant human for the bonus feat, one feat on GWM for sure, and I build towards the 24's in STR and CON. That typically requires 4 or 5 ASI's towards ability scores depending on build method ignoring lucky rolls per a rolling method.

I like the truly epic STR/CON barbarians.

 

[Ashrym]

Everyone forgets that Initiative is an ability check, so 1 level of exhaustion = Disadvantage on Initiative for your barbarian. Which means more damage before you can rage (at least until level 7 I think).

No, it means barbarians lose advantage on initiative. Feral instinct FTW.

 

[hejtmane]

I'm obsessed with that feat and have taken it on every character I've played. Still irritated it doesn't work with a sneak attack but the rules.

What makes it nice on Barbarians you get advantage on strength checks when raging

 

[RulesJD]

What makes it nice on Barbarians you get advantage on strength checks when raging

But not with literally just 1 level of exhaustion.

Regarding ChrisCarlson's post:

Wow, congrats, you saw a 1 in 400 chance occurrence. If you're saying that disadvantage has such a small impact, then knock your socks off. For the rest of us that passed basic mathematics, we'll prefer to take our 1/2 damage from nearly all sources over a cumulative -5 to Initiative, Grapple chances, Perception (PP goes down by -5), etc. to get a bonus action attack that a feat you'll probably be picking up anyways (Polearm Master and/or GWM) would provide you with either guaranteed or semi-regularity.

But hey, if you go to LA Strategiecons, chances are pretty decent we can end up at the same table. You bring your disadvantaged Barbarian and I'll bring my not-disadvantaged one. Let's see how it plays out.

 

[Istbor]

I think disadvantage gets up played way too much. An action is certainly less optimal with disadvantage, however some are calling it crippling, and I don't see it that way. Not Mathematically and not in actual play.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The Berserker only needs to use Frenzy once in his entire lifetime for his lifetime DPR to average higher than a similarly built Totem Barbarian. Or more reasonably, once per long rest. The cost of 1 instance of exhaustion is far from crippling.

What about a wolf totem? I doubt that is an accurate assessment.

I realize this a discussion about balance, so feeling something is overpowered is not off-limits, but it does strike me as funny that you feel GWM is OP, while not Polearm Mastery. Also GWM is better in the hands of Berserker than Polearm Mastery is (this could be debated), so GWM needs to be in the discussion if we are talking about balance.

When I was making a fighter, I wanted to really get a sense for weapon balance, in this process I had to look at feats involved with each weapon choice. The feats that I looked at, were GWM, Shield Master, Polearm Master, and Dual Wielder. I also considered a combination of GWM and Polearm Master. I ran average outgoing damage and incoming damage, based on my group makeup (melee rogue and paly with GW). At lvls 5 and 10 (and just a little at 20) with both advantage and no advantage, and also burst rounds vs non burst rounds. My conclusion was that GWF and Polearm Master were very good, but definitely in the same ballpark with sword and shield with Shield Master. The reason this is relevant, is that in my numbers the real equalizer is not Polearm Master, it is GWM. I realize that you find it OP, but it is this feat that makes the Berserker on par with the Totem Warrior. Any discussion about balance between these 2 paths needs to look at GWM.

That's reasonable. Can you point me to some numbers for the effects of advantage and disadvantage on damage? A good link would do it. I've generally avoided advantage/disadvantage math because its effect relies on the relationship between attack bonus and AC, which are difficult to predict. That being said, we are talking about the norm, and I'm sure a baseline can be developed, which would be useful for my considerations.