Best way to beef up encounters: Higher CRs or larger numbers?

[frankthedm]

The issue of a large group of PCs is the number of actions they get. One monster gets 1 move and 1 attack action or 1 full attack action. Single monsters have their CR set (poorly in my opinion) to handle four PCs (a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue).

If the party is seven members instead of four they have almost twice the number of "activations" or actions as they should for the CR that fits them. 7 PCs will outmaneuver monster groups designed to fight 4 PCs.

Very good point.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I will toss my vote into the ring too. More monsters. Everything's been covered well. It's easier on you too. Same stats. No fiddling.

 

[sfedi]

I suggest adding more creatures if the number of party members is higher than 4.

 

[htetickrt]

I've been running this campaign with a higher level group, presently consisting of 6 characters (shameless plug: it's described by the story hour in my sig), and I have to echo all the advice for more enemies rather than stronger ones here. Though in my case I had to do both frequently.

In addition to all the reasons given, there's the fact that adding more enemies ensures more things for the PCs to do. I find that a single higher-level enemy is either too easy for 6 characters, or has abilities such that in order to kill it requires a talent only a fraction of the PCs possess (e.g. high SR), making the fight less fun for the ones who can't take part.

I would advise upping the hp as some have suggested, though, particularly since the campaign is undead-heavy. I made sure they each had 75% to max to start, or more.

 

[buzz]

Update: I've been going with just increasing numbers so that the EL relative tot he party's is the same as written, e.g., If the party's EL goes up by 1, the EL of the encounter goes up by 1 by means of increased numbers, not tougher monsters.

This isn't enough, apparently. Last session they took on an EL15 drow ambush (sentries, officers, and two quth-maren) and dispatched them with only moderate difficulty; the party had an avg. level of 11.6 at the time.

It seems like the almost-doubling in party size (7 instead of the assumed 4) causes a more-than-linear increase in party power. Even doubling the number of opponents seems less than effective. In the encounter above, I had twice as many officers and quth-maren, though perhaps not quite twice as many sentires, and good ambush tactics were the only reason the combat lasted as long as it did.

(As an aside, I'm a little disappointed in the quth-maren as opponents at the level CotSQ starts out. Their special abilities seem so easily negated that they're left with middling HP and lousy AC for fighting 10th-level PCs. And they're not advanceable!)

Anyway, time to amp things up even more, methinks.

 

[Arnwyn]

This isn't enough, apparently. Last session they took on an EL15 drow ambush (sentries, officers, and two quth-maren) and dispatched them with only moderate difficulty; the party had an avg. level of 11.6 at the time.

It seems like the almost-doubling in party size (7 instead of the assumed 4) causes a more-than-linear increase in party power.

Interesting.

My experience (my experience only) has shown me two things (in context with this thread):

1) an increase in the number of PCs don't affect things as much as I thought (for quite a long time we had 6+ PCs plus some followers, and they weren't much better as a group...);

2) class levels aren't worth the CR they're listed at. If the EL 15 drow encounter were from all classed drow (and likely were, of course), then it's absolutely no surprise your PCs dispatched them relatively easily.

Apparently, YMMV for #1. Not sure about #2, though...

So far, experience has also shown me that higher hps plus more opponents are a better challenge compared to higher-CR opponents (especially if that higher CR is due to class levels). But that's must me.

 

[Saracor]

What I have found with my party (now approaching 9th level) is that when I would put up a higher CR monster, I ran into the problem of single hit kills. When they were 6th-7th I put a mountain troll (CR10) against them along with a few forest trolls (CR5). I had to pull the punches on the mountain troll as it was easily going to kill someone in one hit. I used it to wipe out some extra followers that weren't as necessary and they eventually brought it down with only 1 PC death. This was my ongoing problem with the game...too low and it was a cake walk (not even a 20% expenditure) and too high and I risked a TPK.
What I moved to was increasing the numbers of chum while giving out higher HP to them. I would have 1-2 larger creatures to focus attention on and a bunch of weaker monsters to tie them down. This lead to longer encounters that seemed to challenge them more.

As for your current adventure...the quth-maren look like they can be used to great extent when teamed with a few other undead. Their abilities, while they seem a bit weak, can lead to some problems. Every PC fighting them needs to make constant save rolls. Eventually someone will roll bad. Their acid attack can be annoying, especially without some resistance. Teamed with other undead they can give turn resistance as it affects with each attack on them and as a ranged weapon during their turn. Increase their HPs so they can last longer and perhaps up their AC (14 is a bit low). Give them a protection from good spell or perhaps DR 5/holy resistance. I found that even a low amount of DR can drag the fight out for a while if the PCs don't have many people that can overcome it.

In general, team up monsters to compliment their abilities and as someone mentioned before, add in creatures slowly during the fight. This makes things look tougher for the PCs as the fight keeps dragging on, espcially if they think they are lacking in time to accomplish something. They might use abilities/spells up they normally wouldn't and that will make their next encounter tougher.

 

[TheGogmagog]

As suggested above play the mobs smarter, use terrain and tactics. I also optimize the monsters. You can go through and re-select feats, weapon focus makes more sense than alertness and things like that, or the lazy way. If a creature is built smartly or for a purpose, you can easily gain +2 to hit damage and AC. Perhaps more at higher levels.

As to additional treasure, I can be a tad cruel. The encounters will have single use items, and use them early in combat. This increases the encounter difficulty without overwhelming the party with treasure or exp.

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

When I first started playing, I was a paladin (never again). There was also a rogue and ranger, the three of us fought against all odds at level 1. In the first session we fought 3 skeletons, 20 or so goblins,4 or 5 dire rats and a white wyrmling dragon; which we captured then lost to a goblin sorceress queen. Funny part was, the DM rolled as his dice infront of us, the greedy guy only gave us 136 XP by the end of the session. After that, it was just so much fun even though we didnt level as fast as we should have.


My advise, use as much mosters as possible without tweaking them, play them to their best. You'll see how well the players do teamwork or not.

 

[buzz]

Every PC fighting them needs to make constant save rolls. Eventually someone will roll bad.

Okay, this I may have screwed up. I assumed that once a PC made a successful save, they were immune to the gaze attack for the rest of the encounter. :\