Best way to handle stronghold/domain rules

[ferratus]

Those other 100 followers are effectively henchmen and hirelings - guardsmen, apprentices, servants, and whatnot. They're not really intended to come along on adventures.

I'm not planning on the followers coming along on adventures either, and will all be 4e minions. But I still think they can do other things than just exist, which is why I want to use them as part of the treasure of a stronghold space. So if a rogue has a hideout for example, he can have a follower who is a spy and allow him to reroll a streetwise check.

Basically, I'd like each minor follower (or unit of followers) to do something that has a tangible game benefit, and act like a magical item with daily powers. That's why I'd have followers and stronghold components work like treasure and magical items. It would be nice to pick up followers in the course of your adventures among the monsters and NPC's. A successful diplomacy challenge could convince him/her/it to come work for you.

As far as developing/building the stronghold... I would say the player would have to choose a site and build something from scratch, or find something suitable and "fix it up" himself. The first option would cost a bit more, but enable greater customization (i.e. better bonuses and possibly easier advancement); the second, obviously, would be cheaper but more difficult to customize.

I was kind of hoping that would be easier to do as treasure. For example, the DM could point out that the alchemical equipment found in a dungeon could be disassembled and taken back to their stronghold to improve their own magical laboratory. A stronghold taken from an orcish tribe could be a lost ducal stronghold from the fallen kingdom of Nerath, a match for any stronghold available today.

Sure it will probably lead to players hauling art objects and furniture and everything else not nailed down back to their strongholds, but I think that's part of the fun of D&D.

You can make it modular, so that groups who aren't really interested in running a domain can go off adventuring and let the followers "mind the store", while others interested in politics and intrigue can play at being a lord.

That's exactly what I am thinking too.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, you gained followers as a result of having a stronghold. You didn't gain a stronghold or domain as part of gaining levels.

Actually, once you hit name level, you build/acquire a stronghold and attract followers.

I'm not planning on the followers coming along on adventures either, and will all be 4e minions. But I still think they can do other things than just exist, which is why I want to use them as part of the treasure of a stronghold space. So if a rogue has a hideout for example, he can have a follower who is a spy and allow him to reroll a streetwise check.

Basically, I'd like each minor follower (or unit of followers) to do something that has a tangible game benefit, and act like a magical item with daily powers. That's why I'd have followers and stronghold components work like treasure and magical items. It would be nice to pick up followers in the course of your adventures among the monsters and NPC's. A successful diplomacy challenge could convince him/her/it to come work for you.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I like that idea. Maybe reduce the number of followers overall, but have them give benefits instead of just being followers that do nothing.

I was kind of hoping that would be easier to do as treasure. For example, the DM could point out that the alchemical equipment found in a dungeon could be disassembled and taken back to their stronghold to improve their own magical laboratory. A stronghold taken from an orcish tribe could be a lost ducal stronghold from the fallen kingdom of Nerath, a match for any stronghold available today.

We're thinking along the same lines here. My suggestion would certainly have room for PC improvements - better equipment (the alchemical equipment in the dungeon), expansions (new rooms/towers/whatnot), etc. The lost ducal stronghold you mentioned would be the second case - where they find a prebuilt stronghold and take it over. It would likely cost the PC(s) some money to refurbish it, but not as much as it would to build a new one. The downside to this is that it might not be perfectly suited to their purposes - if a mage wanted to use it, for instance, he might not have a room big enough for summoning or secure enough for magical experimentation (spell research) or whatever, and thus he wouldn't have as good a bonus as he would otherwise.

This, of course, is predicated on the idea that a character can "buy" add-ons for his stronghold: alchemy lab, summoning room, library, training room, whatever. So, the mage who takes over the ducal keep could move in, refurbish, and then later add on a tower with space for his alchemy equipment(which he fortuitously finds in a dungeon somewhere). The way I was thinking of doing this is to have maybe three grades (basic, average, advanced, e.g.) for each add-on; each grade grants a better bonus or enables better skill checks. For example, a basic library would enable someone to do reasearch on questions up to DC 15; an average one, 20, and an advanced one 25.

You coulid also use this system for hirelings/followers. Want better research bonuses? Hire a sage. Want good weapons? Build a forge and hire a blacksmith.

Sure it will probably lead to players hauling art objects and furniture and everything else not nailed down back to their strongholds, but I think that's part of the fun of D&D.

Exactly! Let them find a use for all that junk they find, besides selling it. I think it would be really fun to find something in a dungeon and say "Wow, this would look really good in the front hall of our keep, don't you think?"

 

[Quickleaf]

I think you're on to something. With the artifact idea, would each component of the stronghold (e.g. alchemist lab, training ground, etc) be treated as an artifact or the entire stronghold itself?

 

[LostSoul]

I like the artifact idea.

What would concordance look like?

Bonuses:
Extra patrols
Building forts
Heavy investments in infrastructure
Doing paperwork

Penalties
No patrols
Leaving the land for some time
Not holding court personally
Not dealing with powerful roaming monsters (per monster)
Not dealing with monster lairs (per lair)
No investment in infrastructure


I guess the key would be to make the concordance things adventure hooks.

 

[Kerrick]

I think you're on to something. With the artifact idea, would each component of the stronghold (e.g. alchemist lab, training ground, etc) be treated as an artifact or the entire stronghold itself?

I would say the entire thing. Upgrading by adding on components would be akin to upgrading a normal magic item.

 

[Kask]

Actually, once you hit name level, you build/acquire a stronghold and attract followers.

Umm, no. At the "name" level you were then allowed, by the rules, to do so. You didn't automatically build, acquire or otherwise get a stronghold. It was totally up to the player to try and do this...

 

[ChaosShard]

I like the artifact idea.

What would concordance look like?

Bonuses:
Extra patrols
Building forts
Heavy investments in infrastructure
Doing paperwork

Penalties
No patrols
Leaving the land for some time
Not holding court personally
Not dealing with powerful roaming monsters (per monster)
Not dealing with monster lairs (per lair)
No investment in infrastructure


I guess the key would be to make the concordance things adventure hooks.

(Emphasis mine)

That sounds like a great way to work a leadership-style feat (or PP?), allowing you to hire adventurers to clear those things out. Funny, I seem to remember something about retired adventurers settling down and hiring out young'ns to clear kobolds for them since they're bogged down with matters of state

In 3e I used leadership similarly to this. Anyone who had a position of power/authority could buy the leadership feat and have a faithful (and somewhat competent) lieutenant back home to handle things for them. The extra little guys they got were loyal servants that they could count on.

 

[ferratus]

This, of course, is predicated on the idea that a character can "buy" add-ons for his stronghold: alchemy lab, summoning room, library, training room, whatever. So, the mage who takes over the ducal keep could move in, refurbish, and then later add on a tower with space for his alchemy equipment(which he fortuitously finds in a dungeon somewhere).

I think the 3e Stronghold Builder's Guide system of stronghold spaces and giving each room a value in gold peices would be the way to go here. It would allow people to know how much room is required to put the rooms they want into the pre-existing stronghold.

The way I was thinking of doing this is to have maybe three grades (basic, average, advanced, e.g.) for each add-on; each grade grants a better bonus or enables better skill checks. For example, a basic library would enable someone to do reasearch on questions up to DC 15; an average one, 20, and an advanced one 25.

I was thinking about doing it as having a level like magical items do. That way you can not only tie whatever ability or bonus to a particular level, you could also have differing types of libraries or laboratories or whatever.

For example, if you had a necromancer's library, you could not only get a bonus to arcana checks by research, you could perhaps substitute necrotic energy for the energy type of any spell you cast 1/day.

You coulid also use this system for hirelings/followers. Want better research bonuses? Hire a sage. Want good weapons? Build a forge and hire a blacksmith.

You know, this thought triggered one of my own. Followers would work better modeled after rituals far better than they would be after magical items. They are supposed to be hirelings after all, so paying them every time they do a service for you naturally follows. So if you gain a follower who is a dwarven smith, he can make magical arms and armour for you as per an "enchant item" ritual. A spy or a sage might work similarly to a "consult mystic sages" ritual. An animal trainer might train any young beasts you give him for the cost of the exotic mount.

This would allow followers to step in for rituals that PC's don't have or can't get because they lack characters of the appropriate class, or because they decided to take alchemy, or they'd rather their ritual book have other rituals in it.

 

[ferratus]

Since we are pretty much talking about 4e mechanics exclusively, I've summed up what we have been talking about in a new thread on the 4e House Rules forum.