Blade Cascade: Much too good...

[Celtavian]

re

I was doing some figuring. Maybe Blade Cascade isn't as powerful as I thought. It has the potential given very lucky rolls to be way overpowered. It's pretty hard to boost your hit rating in 4th edition to such a level that you can't miss. It might be possible with some real strange grouping of powers, but an average party not specifically made for giving the blade casade ranger every possible bonus it's pretty hard to get a real high hit bonus.

 

[PallidPatience]

It's pretty hard to boost your hit rating in 4th edition to such a level that you can't miss.

Yeah. I think it was stated that the PCs were supposed to have a 50% chance to hit any given target of their level, even given all of the bonuses it takes to be balanced at that level. So it would take some pretty awesome teamwork to pull off a devastating Blade Cascade, which, I think, makes it fairly balanced.

 

[proto128]

Yeah. I think it was stated that the PCs were supposed to have a 50% chance to hit any given target of their level, even given all of the bonuses it takes to be balanced at that level. So it would take some pretty awesome teamwork to pull off a devastating Blade Cascade, which, I think, makes it fairly balanced.

As long as you're okay with the potential for broken combos - like Kenshiro Cascadero or the Nineballer combo, either of which could devastate Orcus in 1 round - Blade Cascade is fine. That doesn't mean it's not broken. It's still one of if not the best power a ranger can pick up, and it's 15th level. Bringing it in line with the other level 15 powers (say by limiting the number of additional attacks to your Wisdom modifier) is not an unreasonable fix.

 

[Gloombunny]

Melee cleric uses Righteous Brand: +6 to hit
Human ranger spends action point: +3 to hit from Action Surge
Human ranger uses Armor Splinter and hits with one of the two attacks: effective +4 to hit thanks to lowered AC

Combine that with the usual proficiency, attribute, level, and enhancement bonuses, and you should be hitting level-appropriate dragons on 2+. All it takes is the ranger using an action point and an encounter power, plus a buddy using an at-will power, not any intricate four-player teamwork.

 

[Pickles JG]

I think it should be [1w] (no attribute) &, generously like 1/3 levels, capped as it's trivial to get the to hit up as Gloombunny shows.

Alternatively force the follow up attacks to target different creatures - as most of the to hit buffs are on one target. Maybe two basic attacks then follow ups. This changes the flavour though.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think it should be [1w] (no attribute) &, generously like 1/3 levels, capped as it's trivial to get the to hit up as Gloombunny shows.

Alternatively force the follow up attacks to target different creatures - as most of the to hit buffs are on one target. Maybe two basic attacks then follow ups. This changes the flavour though.

I disagree that it's trivial. Even assuming you have all the powers in the case (which is reasonably in a "power-gamer" group ), you still have to time the use of all powers correctly. You have to ensure that you haven't spend any of the powers on other foes or in other encounters. And you need a worthy foe, too - if you don't encounter an elite or solo, the power combination might be wasted. If the Cleric misses with Righteous Brand, or the Ranger misses with Armor Splinter, you need another round to pull this off. (and the exact combination even becomes impossible)

Has anyone actually _used_ this combination in a real scenario? I can see that the playtests might have shown that it's so hard to pull of in real play that the reward is okay.

I will not claim that it isn't broken. But as long as I haven't seen a few actual play reports where it was used successfully, I reserve some doubts whether it is a real problem.

---

If I was to change it, limiting the number of attacks might be one way to do it - you could also apply a cumulative -2 penalty after every 2 successful attacks.

 

[comrade raoul]

I'm thinking about using a capped version at 15th level (that does slightly less damage for the early attacks), and an uncapped version at 15th level with an increasing penalty. The result looks a bit like this:

Blade Cascade -- Ranger Attack 15th
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action -- Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One or two creatures.
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks (main weapon and off-hand weapon)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier per attack. Make a secondary attack with the same weapon against the same target.

Secondary Attack: Strength - 2 vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Make a tertiary attack with the same weapon against the same target.

Tertiary Attack: Strength - 4 vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.
​

Here's the stronger version:

Time Stands Still -- Ranger Attack 25th
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action -- Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One or two creatures.
Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks (main weapon and off-hand weapon).
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier per attack. If both attacks hit, repeat this power, but at a -1 penalty to each attack roll. You may continue to repeat the power as long as both attacks hit, but the penalty is cumulative.

 

[Celtavian]

re

My DM thinks it's fine. So I'm just going to use it to full effect. I tried to tell my play group that it is broken and very easily broken at that. But they weren't buying into it. So I'm just going to be happy I'm not DMing and just use the overpowered combo and gain as much glory as I can before my gaming group wakes up and goes "way broken".

 

[Cpt_Micha]

I like the limiting the number of attacks to Wisdom modifier. (Makes a note to do it that way)

 

[Rzach]

Blade Cascade has errata. According to the errata Blade Cascade hits a maximum of 5 times unless you miss. You can find the details on the wizards website.