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D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

CapnZapp

Legend
I don't understand why this thread has gone on for so many pages either.

Everybody but the OP is fine with the Bladesinger. Sure, it's powerful, but it can't steal anyone's thunder, and it doesn't do wizardry better. Just about every argument has been met by now.

The Bladesinger is far from the top of my "needs revision" list.

Irrational dislike is not going to change, no matter how well argued. There's nothing more we can do for the OP here. It's time to give it a rest. See y'all in another thread!


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It's the scenario we discussed. They are - "solo tanking" - meaning they are the only character doing the tanking. While allies deal damage.
Then your five round concept is bunk and the 2 round analysis holds. You haven't addressed the arbitrary insistence on 5 rounds, which aided your analysis. An analysis which is flawed because you factored in critical hits on the bladesinger as a fraction increase in damage absorbed when, in fact, they are 1-shots. When you do the five round analysis allowing for the 1-shot nature of critical hits, the factional damage and the critical chance drive the bladesinger survival rate under 50%, which, statistically, means the bladesinger doesn't survive 1 fight, either.
At 4th level the Bladesinger can also trivialise many foes by levitating them and getting to work with a hand crossbow, but let's ignore that for now. Oh, we also discovered they're pretty good at melting mobs (multiple lower CR foes) with Burning Hands. Also, ignored. Because somehow tanking better than the most defensive fighter while still having all that in the bank doesn't count... right?
All of these spells aren't improved by the bladesinger being in melee, though -- in fact, the bladesinger's ability to trivialize combats is reduced by the need to keep slots available for mage armor and shield. The 4th level bladesinger has 1 1st level slot available if he wants to shield twice, and 2 2nd level slots available. Compare this to the non-bladesinger wizard that has 4 1sts and 2 2nd available to trivialize fights. The ability to trivialize fights doesn't come from the bladesinger tradition, but from being a wizard, and the bladesinger is a poorer wizard by expending his slots to be in melee -- which is a high risk position for the bladesinger due to the very shallow hit point pool she has.

And the tanking better has been shown to be incorrect in every scenario in this thread once the danger of critical hits it properly accounted for.

The glass shield claim makes no sense, when Champion is dying twice to Bladesinger's once.
This is true only in the extremely flawed initial scenario you presented, which doesn't account for the real effect of critical hits on the bladesinger and also is highly unrealistic in terms of length of each fight. It was so unrealistic that I mistakenly assumed you meant the 5 rounds to be a solo encounter with the CR 4 and not a party encounter, because 5 rounds is highly unrealistic for a party encounter at 4th level against a CR4 with the tank taking attacks every round.

Unless the CR4 you're fighting is making ranged attacks, in which case the math skews very poorly against the bladesinger. The CR4 should be kiting tanks and killing the most dangerous threats first, which the bladesinger isn't unless they go full wizard which dramatically reduces their ability to tank.

So, again, the problem with the bladesinger isn't actually a problem because it's an either or situation -- the bladesinger is either a wizard, in which case she outshines the fighter solely on the basis of being a wizard, or the bladesinger is trying to tank, in which case she's not better than the fighter because she isn't contributing very much to damage and is at high risk of dropping in one shot to a crit that cannot be mitigated. But at no point is the bladesinger both of these things.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I don't understand why this thread has gone on for so many pages either.

Everybody but the OP is fine with the Bladesinger. Sure, it's powerful, but it can't steal anyone's thunder, and it doesn't do wizardry better. Just about every argument has been met by now.

The Bladesinger is far from the top of my "needs revision" list.

Irrational dislike is not going to change, no matter how well argued. There's nothing more we can do for the OP here. It's time to give it a rest. See y'all in another thread!


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Why is it you keep thinking you're the thread police and should be the one declaring, "Discussion over, nothing to see here, move along?"

Here's a protip: individual posters will make up their own minds about when the discussion is no longer fruitful. I happen to have a lot of respect for [MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION], and so will continue to engage him on this topic until common ground is made or either/both of us decide, on our own, whether there's no more fruitful discussion. What you think we should do is of zero impact to what I'm going to do.

And I'm saying this agreeing with your conclusions about the bladesinger, so, it isn't sour grapes at being the one being dismissed by your post.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Sure, it's powerful, but it can't steal anyone's thunder, and it doesn't do wizardry better. Just about every argument has been met by now.
BS steals heavily armoured, defensive fighting style martial's thunder, because it flatly out-tanks them while also doing wizardry better than most arcane traditions (due to the bonus to Concentration, and ability to stay out of or survive melee). I recall back in earlier editions, there was a concept that if a fighter could just get in melee contact with a wizard, the wizard was in trouble. Not against BS.

When you say "met" all that has happened is some people argue to turn a blind eye to this because martials are so much weaker than casters anyway, who could care?

The Bladesinger is far from the top of my "needs revision" list.
That isn't apposite. This isn't a thread about priorities for revisions. It's exactly what it says it is: a critique of BS.

Irrational dislike is not going to change, no matter how well argued.
Just words. I don't "dislike" Bladesinger. I'm putting effort into this critique because I like the archetype... with the exception of the AC part. As for the ad-hominem? Really Capn?
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
so will continue to engage him on this topic until common ground is made or either/both of us decide, on our own, whether there's no more fruitful discussion. What you think we should do is of zero impact to what I'm going to do.
That's appreciated. So where I am is it looks to me like most arcane traditions aren't better at wizardry than BS. Maybe Divination is. Maybe Evoker is. Any others?

And then I'm struggling with this Champion thing. He seems to die twice as often as BS! Putting that together with the above.... ?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
That's appreciated. So where I am is it looks to me like most arcane traditions aren't better at wizardry than BS. Maybe Divination is. Maybe Evoker is. Any others?

And then I'm struggling with this Champion thing. He seems to die twice as often as BS! Putting that together with the above.... ?

They are all better at wizarding, because none of them require mage armor as a default cast and reserving slots for shield just to be in melee.

And, if you account for crits properly, the champion does as well as the bladesinger while tanking -- they both die in the first 5 round fight. If you use either of my scenarios -- the 2 round party tanking (which is far more accurate than 5 rounds) or the solo encounter, the champion fares better because of the 1-shot nature of crits against the bladesinger.

i'm a bit frustrated that you haven't addressed the crit issue with your analysis at all and yet still insist on referring to it as if no serious challenge to it has been made made and everyone agrees with it.

Here it is again:

Level 4 bladesinger: INT 20, DEX 18, 14 CON
AC: 17 (mage armor, dex), 22 when bladesinging
HP: 21, effective 36 with 1 use of shield (i find this to be the most efficient way to model shield - just add the damage from one attack to hp)
Attack routine: 1 GFB w/ rapier at +6 to hit, 1d8+4 damage to single target.

Level 4 Champion: STR 20, CON 18, DEX 14
AC: 18 (platemail)
HP: 44, 53 with second wind
Attack routine: 1 greatsword w/ GWM and GW fighting style (assumed to add 1.33 to DPR): +2 to hit, 2d6+16.33 damage to single target, second attack on crit, crit chance 10%

CR 4 melee monster: +3 in controlling stat, +2 proficiency
AC: 13
HP: 125
Attack routine: multiattack 2, +5 to hit, 15 damage each hit, crit damage 26

Combat -- 5 rounds in melee.

CR4 vs Bladesinger:
CR4 hits bladesinger on an 18 or better, so 15% of the time, inflicts 15 damage per attack, attacks twice per round. Ignoring criticals, this is 10% chance of 15 damage twice per round or 3 damage per round. Bladesinger can survive 7 rounds without shield use or 12 rounds with shield. Can survive 2 fights without crits.

Now add in crits: 10% chance of crit per round, damage drops bladesinger. Cannot be added fractionally, as damage does not accumulate. So, after first round, chance of crit ending the fight is the chance of no crit in each preceeding round x 10%.
1 round: 10% chance of fight ending.
2 rounds: 19% chance of fight ending.
3 rounds: 28.1% chance of fight ending.
4 rounds: 37.2% chance of fight ending.
5 rounds: 46.3% chance of fight ending.

The critical chance controls here, so at anything more than 5 rounds, even with shield usage, the bladesinger drops to statistical analysis. And, at 5 rounds, she hasa 46% chance of dropping outright. If you do 2 of these fights, regardless of anything else, the % chance of the bladesinger dropping is 92%.

Now, let's add up the damage output of the bladesinger's contribution to dropping the CR4:
Bladesinger hits on a 7+, or 70% of the time. They deal 8.5 damage on a hit, or 6 damage per round. At the end of 5 rounds, the bladesinger has contributed 30 damage, meaning her party has contributed 95 damage over 5 rounds, or 19 DPR per round. The combined group does 25 damage per round.

CR4 vs Champion
CR4 hits the Champion on a 13+, or 40% of the time, two attacks at 15 damage each. Crits 5% of the time, but crit damage isn't enough to one shot, so we'll add it in fractionally. 35% chance of normal hit plus 5% chance of crit at 26 damage twice per round is 6.55. Champion can last 8 rounds with second wind, 6.7 without, so survives the first fight. Without healing, will not survive the second.

Now, let's look at the damage outlay of the Champion. Using the power attack function of GWM, the champion hits on a 11+ (50%) and crits 10% of the time. So, 40% at 23.33 damage and 10% at 30.33 damage plus an extra attack for a total of 30.33 + another 40% of 23.33. That's 13.3 DPR.

Assuming the same party as the bladesinger's, the damage outlay of the group jumps from 25 damage per round to 32.3 damage per round. Instead of 5 rounds to kill the CR4, the Champion's party takes just 4 rounds. This means the Champion really only takes 28 damage, which is about half of his with second wind total of 53. He'll need a cure spell or potion between fights, but he'll make it.

This analysis gets even better for the Champion at level 5.

Conclusion

So, the bladesinger in melee effectively loses 3 first level slots to do be a melee tank. That's a huge outlay of resources in Tier 1 (and II, honestly), to ape being a fighter. But even with that expenditure, the bladesinger is at serious risk in melee to crits, which she cannot mitigate, because crits can empty her shallow hp pool very quickly. In a pinch, the bladesinger can be a tank, but it's a high risk, high resource cost choice, which seems okay to me and not overpowered. The Champion isn't making that cost choice to tank, and, looking at the damage outlay, the Champion stays clearly ahead and ends fights more quickly, thus reducing his exposure.

And, really, that's the bottom line: the bladesinger can expend a lot of resources to approximate the survival rate of a Champion in the melee tank role. They lose out to EKs and BMs, though, as their abilities significantly improve their tanking. And that's why it's fine -- the bladesinger can do it, but has to pay a lot for the ability, and it's still not better than what the fighter does even with very high stats.
 

Ansel Darach

First Post
You really shouldn't wast spell slots on mage armor or any other spell than shield as its pretty much a waste, you will have 21 AC with studded leather and bladesong.

Just cast Blur+song and move next to the enemy, for a feat take sentinel.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
They are all better at wizarding, because none of them require mage armor as a default cast and reserving slots for shield just to be in melee.
So is it right that the main reason you judge them worse at wizardry, is the allocation of some first level spell slots to those purposes? Do you mean that judgement to apply over most of their adventuring career? Say those slots weren't important for the majority of their career, would that change anything? Imagine that wizards other than BS also used those slots for identical purposes, would that change anything?

i'm a bit frustrated that you haven't addressed the crit issue with your analysis at all and yet still insist on referring to it as if no serious challenge to it has been made made and everyone agrees with it.
Okay let's look at some numbers, we're assuming a 5 round fight with 2 attacks (Multiattack) every round, +5 attack against AC 22. Due to Shield, by far the most likely way the CR 4 foe kills the BS is the critical. That's why it has become the crux of our debate. Do you agree that over ten attacks, the cumulative probability of that critical = 1-(1-c)^r = 1-(1-.05)^10 = ~40%. (Over two combats, the cumulative probability is about 64%.)

For me, those probabilities strictly indicate that BS is likely to survive two or more combats. Any critical ends the fight so damage isn't at issue: all we need is the cumulative probability of the critical.

Either way, we agree that the BS drops about once per two combats and odds-on survives one combat 6:4. That is what I have been consistently stating all through. BS wins the combat any time they want by Levitating either themselves or the creature and filling it full of heavy crossbow bolts, but I'm charitably giving their allies a job.

Now, let's add up the damage output of the bladesinger's contribution to dropping the CR4:
Bladesinger hits on a 7+, or 70% of the time. They deal 8.5 damage on a hit, or 6 damage per round. At the end of 5 rounds, the bladesinger has contributed 30 damage, meaning her party has contributed 95 damage over 5 rounds, or 19 DPR per round. The combined group does 25 damage per round.
You know, this is helpful because it points to another big difference in our understanding. I think you are saying that the BS behaviour is binary, right? They're a fighter, or a wizard, but never both at the same time.

That's not what I think and not what I've seen in play. BS remains a full wizard even when they're tanking with their AC 22 and Shield. They can always win by wizardry and their other benefits are important here - a big buff to Concentration, a big buff to not be grappled, a big buff to speed (when assessing speed buffs, gains are absolute, not a ratio: if X is 10' faster than Y, then Y never catches X unless X lets them).

Assuming the same party as the bladesinger's, the damage outlay of the group jumps from 25 damage per round to 32.3 damage per round. Instead of 5 rounds to kill the CR4, the Champion's party takes just 4 rounds. This means the Champion really only takes 28 damage, which is about half of his with second wind total of 53. He'll need a cure spell or potion between fights, but he'll make it.
This is fair. My key objection is that BS just as readily finishes the engagement within 5 rounds. We're being far too charitable to the CR 4 foe to assume it lasts as long as it does.

Also, I believe you are low-balling the PC output, a point I want to come back to in a minute.

Conclusion
I don't believe either of us is entitled to a conclusion yet because I think you've shown that we need to add another layer to our analysis.

You've asserted an asymmetry: Champion takes foe out of combat faster so is exposed to fewer attacks in return. I challenge that asymmetry because it looks to me like you low-balled other PC's contributions and didn't include options that BS has to do likewise, faster. We also need to focus on the majority of BS' career. So far I've gone along with Level 4 for a specific reason - it's probably the last level where Champion has a hope in hell of being better than BS - but we both know that most of an adventurer's career is spent between levels 5 and 12. I think now we do need to play fair on that front too: otherwise your arguments will always be subject to my challenge that you've cherry-picked a fraction of the adventurer's career and called it representative.

Per RAW, the expected career is about 21 days or 30 sessions 1-12, with about 4 days or 6 sessions at levels 1-4, and 17 days or 24 sessions at levels 5-12. What level do you feel is fairest to use? Also, I think I should be making the choices for the BS setup, and you those for the Champion setup, as I don't agree with some of what you chose for BS. I concede that BS can be down-powered through charitable choices; any archetype can be.

Does that all sound constructive?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You've asserted an asymmetry: Champion takes foe out of combat faster so is exposed to fewer attacks in return. I challenge that asymmetry because it looks to me like you low-balled other PC's contributions and didn't include options that BS has to do likewise, faster. We also need to focus on the majority of BS' career. So far I've gone along with Level 4 for a specific reason - it's probably the last level where Champion has a hope in hell of being better than BS - but we both know that most of an adventurer's career is spent between levels 5 and 12. I think now we do need to play fair on that front too: otherwise your arguments will always be subject to my challenge that you've cherry-picked a fraction of the adventurer's career and called it representative.

Per RAW, the expected career is about 21 days or 30 sessions 1-12, with about 4 days or 6 sessions at levels 1-4, and 17 days or 24 sessions at levels 5-12. What level do you feel is fairest to use? Also, I think I should be making the choices for the BS setup, and you those for the Champion setup, as I don't agree with some of what you chose for BS. I concede that BS can be down-powered through charitable choices; any archetype can be.

Does that all sound constructive?

Wizards have sucky single target damage spells. All your wizard impressive DPR numbers assumed using spells that hit multiple foes. A wizard is almost guaranteed to kill a single target slower than a fighter.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Wizards have sucky single target damage spells. All your wizard impressive DPR numbers assumed using spells that hit multiple foes. A wizard is almost guaranteed to kill a single target slower than a fighter.
Levitate + heavy crossbow. Safe, effective, makes 9/10 foes completely helpless. (Exaggerating mildly for effect, but you see my point I'm sure.)
 

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