D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

Okay, I took your suggested numbers for your party but ended up in a different place than you did. Help me review:

Bladesinger, DEX 18 -- 1st round prep, then BB for 2d8+4 with a +7 attack bonus
Archer fighter, DEX 18 (I upped this from your 16?) -- using sharpshooter, 2 attacks, d8+14 each at +2 attack bonus
Rogue, DEX 18 )again, upped from 16?) -- no sneak first round so d6+4, sneak thereafter for 5d6+4, +7 attack bonus
Cleric, WIS 18 -- 1st round prep, cast sacred flame after for 2d8 DC 15 (giant's fail 75% of the time)

So, from that I get:
round 1
Bladesinger 0
Cleric 0
Archer: 19.4 (37 * .4 + .1 * 46)
Rogue: 5.8 (7.5 * .7 + .05 * 11)
Total damage dealt (ave): 25.2

Round 2 (and thereafter)
Bladesinger: 10.2 (13 * .7 + .05 * 22)
Cleric: 6.75 (9 * .75)
RogueL 16.65 (21.5 * .7 + .05 * 39)
Archer: 19.4
Total damage dealt this round: 53

Round 1 total damage: 25.2
Round 2 total damage: 78.2
Round 3 total damage: 131.2 (1st giant dead)
Round 4 total damage: 184.2
Round 5 total damage: 237.2 (2nd giant dead)

Bladesinger party takes 5 rounds, with 2 rocks +4 clubs +4 clubs +2 clubs +2 clubs or 14 attacks a combat, not 12? I guess this depends on initiative? 12 is good.

A champion party with a greatsword champ, same rogue, same cleric (but casts spiritual weapon that attacks 1st in round 2 instead of warding bond), wizard that searing ray and magic missiles before flame bolting will end this same fight on round 4 instead of 5 taking 2 rocks, 4 clubs, 2 clubs, 2 clubs or 10 total attacks. Accounting for Champion crits and extra attack, they almost kill a giant in round 2. A magic weapon for the champion seals this deal handily and reduces total attacks to 8.

A champion party with sword and board defensive still, otherwise same as above barely edges out the giants in 4 rounds, and it's unlikely that they exactly match the first giant's hp's and apply everything after immediately to the second giant, so let's go with 5 rounds for this group as well. The greatsword group handily deals enough damage, so even a 1 hitpoint greatsword hit doesn't change their math.

So, then, how many hits is an AC 18 greatsword champion expected to take over 32 attacks?
6 hits....~100.00%
7 hits.......99.09%
8 hits.......97.52%
9 hits.......94.25%
10 hits......88.44%
11 hits......79.54%
12 hits......67.67%
13 hits......53.82%
14 hits......39.61%
15 hits......26.76%
16 hits......16.48%

My spreadsheet was built to provide chance for up to 16 hits on the assumption that would be plenty. I think that holds.
So, 2:3 to take 12 hits, 1:2 for 13. Let's assume 3 hits per fight. Average damage is 18.5 for 55.5 damage. The fighter doesn't drop in any given fight, but after first fight a second wind (11.5 hp healing, remainder 44) and cleric can burn their channel for 30 of that, leaving 14. Can't carry that into the second fight, without dying, so a 1st level heal will cure 8.5, leaving 5.5. Next fight ends with champ down 61 hps, very close to dropping. Short rest, burns 3 hit die for 30.5 healing, down 30.5 now. Cleric uses second channel, healed. Cleric now at 3/1/3. 3rd fight, comes out down 55.5 damage. Second wind heals 11.5, down 44. Cleric casts 2 cure wounds at 1st for 17, leaves 27. Not good enough. Another gets us to 19.5, will need a 3rd slot to get to the last fight. Cleric is down to 0/0/2 going into the last fight. Last fight cleric uses a 3rd for spiritual weapon, champion survives with 55.5 damage, long rest.

Greatsword champion comes out slightly worse than the Bladesinger in total party resource burn. If I add in action surge in two fights, the increase in damage takes out a giant one turn faster and reduces total damage taken by enough to get into parity with the bladesinger party. Neither party is particularly good at damage out (I think you shorted your bladesinger by using booming blade). Both have resources left for the wizard/cleric to use a 3rd slot for exploration purposes. It seems a wash between damage out and damage in.

The sword and board champion, however, is a clear loser to the Bladesinger.


ETA: I figured both archers as champion archers, and just realized at the end that you specified a battlemaster archer using precision. Damage for bladesinger party goes up accordingly and the Bladesinger party does defeat the giants in 4 turns, not 5. However, the effectiveness of a battlemaster over a champion fighter, especially with SS/GWM and precision, has been beaten to death and clearly shown on these boards. I think to be as fair a comparison as possible, if the bladesinger is being compared to a champion, that the bladesinger party have a champion and not a battelmaster to make the comparison even. That way, it's as similar as possible for comparison: bladesigner party is wizard (bladesinger), cleric (life) rogue (AT), fighter (champion) and the Champion party is: fighter (Champion), wizard (unspecified), cleric (life), and rogue (AT). The only difference then is changing the tradition of the bladesinger and changing the champion and wizaard from a melee role to a ranged role.

ETA2: the sword and board champion still loses to the bladesinger with similar parties, so it's still a clear win for team Bladesinger.

Will revert to you later tonight. I forgot to include BS Extra Attack (6th level) in their damage. I like the idea of mapping out the damage per round, so will take a look at that. I just divided the per day because that was easiest with my current spreadsheet.

 

[Mort]

You know, I just realised BS gets Extra Attack at 6th level. I'll need to reduce the damage difference between BS and Champion.

Isn't he using BB most of the time? That's going to be one attack only.



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[Mort]

In my experience, while these game balance discussions always assuming no magical item drops, that's never been the case in any game I've been in that has gone on for four or more sessions.

If I wanted raw AC and saves, I would have designed a Variant Human Fighter 1/Abjurer X instead of a Bladesinger. The Bladesinger beats them out only with no item drops. If by level 12-14 or so the Fighter/Abjurer has +2/3 and +2/3 shield and plate (which is very possible if you play pretty much any HC from level 1 to conclusion, let alone if you're hunting or trading for specific items) will simply have a better AC. The Bladesinger will have a much better offense, especially if magical items drop, but as people mentioned in this thread you shift more towards a pure spellcaster build over time anyway.

As [MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION] said, I think this doesn't quite work for the Abjurer.

1. He loses out on a full caster level: One big advantage to the BS is he gets all this stuff without having to give up a caster level.
2. The fighter 1/wizard X build only gets one attack, not 2 like the BS (though with BB and spells the BS isn't using that attack too often).
3 He doesn't get the Concentration boost the BS has - this is important for mages anywhere near melee.
4. Trying to compare magic items is always tricky: If the BS gets (by high level) Robe of the Archmagi, Bracers of Defense and a Ring of Prot his AC is a base 22/23 and 27/28 with the Bladesong up - easily keeping up with the Abjurer. Sure the Abjurer could have the same stuff but unless he also focused on dex it won't be the same AC (as opposed to armor where DEX doesn't matter).

What the Abjurer is better than the BS at:
1. HP support for himself and the party - free HP is always good;
2. Counterspelling: The Abjurer has a big edge on the BS here.

IMO, he's likely better off just going straight abjurer and not losing the caster level.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Will revert to you later tonight. I forgot to include BS Extra Attack (6th level) in their damage. I like the idea of mapping out the damage per round, so will take a look at that. I just divided the per day because that was easiest with my current spreadsheet.

At best, from 6 to 10, it's +4 damage if you can't proc the secondaries of GFB or BB. If you can, it's strictly worse. After 11th, jus worse.

Extra attack is largely useless for the bladesinger. It had some edge case uses, but not enough.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In my experience, while these game balance discussions always assuming no magical item drops, that's never been the case in any game I've been in that has gone on for four or more sessions.

If I wanted raw AC and saves, I would have designed a Variant Human Fighter 1/Abjurer X instead of a Bladesinger. The Bladesinger beats them out only with no item drops. If by level 12-14 or so the Fighter/Abjurer has +2/3 and +2/3 shield and plate (which is very possible if you play pretty much any HC from level 1 to conclusion, let alone if you're hunting or trading for specific items) will simply have a better AC. The Bladesinger will have a much better offense, especially if magical items drop, but as people mentioned in this thread you shift more towards a pure spellcaster build over time anyway.

You compare them at no magic because that's what they're designed for.

 

[clearstream]

Isn't he using BB most of the time? That's going to be one attack only.

That's a very good point. BB is part of the tanking (i.e the damage escalation if the giant moves).

Where we are then is sustaining that team-BS comes out ahead of team-Champion. The problem for me here is of course that I dislike that BS is tanking even as well as Champion, let alone more effectively. And the scary thing is, BS is ending that day with all their 3rd level spell slots still in the tank.

Also, I agree with @Ovinomancer's above about magic items.


[Edit to note about 3rd level slots.]

 

[Rofel Wodring]

Fighter 1, Wizard X will always be 1 Wizard level behind BS. With +2 armor/shield Abjurer will be AC 25. BS will be AC 26 with +2 armor/ring (also gaining improved saves). What is the consequence of being one level behind?

You can't just analyze it like that, because you're ignoring attunement slots. Which are an extremely huge deal. The BS has their 26 AC, but at the cost of using up two attunement slots on Bracers of Armor and a Ring of Protection. The BS taunts the Abjurer about their bulge of +1 AC and saves, and the Abjurer laughs in their crazy face and tells them that since they have a Staff of the Magi (which you can earn early in Storm King's Thunder if your'e evil enough) and a Tome of the Stilled Tongue (which they can also earn in a certain adventure in Tales of the Yawning Portal) they're still a much, MUCH better character.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

You compare them at no magic because that's what they're designed for.

Who gives a care what they were designed for if the design doesn't reflect actual games as they are played? I've played a bunch of home games, canned AL paths, and especially hardcovers and magical items are plentiful. After 15 or so sessions of SKT or TYP with a group of 4-6 PCs you'll have way more than you can attune to.

3E D&D made a lot of early design decisions that didn't reflect how games were played, such as a WBL that ignored the Christmas Tree Effect and a prestige class system that assumed DMs would design PrCs much more often than using canned ones. So what?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Who gives a care what they were designed for if the design doesn't reflect actual games as they are played?

Anyone wanting to make a valid comparison of those designs. Whether they're good or usable designs for a given campaign isn't the point (though it's certainly an important point for that campaign), just how they stack up to eachother.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

Anyone wanting to make a valid comparison of those designs. Whether they're good or usable designs for a given campaign isn't the point (though it's certainly an important point for that campaign), just how they stack up to eachother.

Again, who cares about the comparison of the designs if the premises are unreflective of actual games, including pretty much every hardcover WotC published? It's like having a discussion whether New Coke with cane sugar or beet sugar is more popular.