D&D 5E Bladesinger vs. Valor Bard vs. Bladelock

Irda Ranger

First Post
One thing that you need to look at is how MAD the class is. For instance, with the Bladesinger getting +INT added to Concentration, AC and damage they are not MAD at all. They can pump INT and not worry about the rest as much. A blade-lock as written is crippled by MAD issues.

However I read the Arcana Unearthed article on the Warlock Hexblade as trying to fix the shortcoming of the blade-lock class. The Hexblade gets Medium Armor, Shields, and uses CHR for attack and damage modifiers with their pact weapons. That moves them closer to par with the other classes here I think. In my house rules I make this a feature of the Pact of the Blade so that all patrons can be have viable blade-locks.

Putting the Blade-lock's extra attacks, HP boosts, and bonus damage in the Invocations section though is sort of necessary. The Invocations allow you to build your Warlock as an infiltrator, warrior, ranged blaster, etc. It's very flexible. But you do have to choose. If the Blade-lock got Extra Attack, +X weapons, automagic mage armor, etc. AND Invocations on top of that they'd be ridiculously better than Valor Bard or Bladesinger.
 

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Irda Ranger

First Post
One thing that you need to look at is how MAD the class is. For instance, with the Bladesinger getting +INT added to Concentration, AC and damage they are not MAD at all. They can pump INT and not worry about the rest as much. A blade-lock as written is crippled by MAD issues.

However I read the Arcana Unearthed article on the Warlock Hexblade as trying to fix the shortcoming of the blade-lock class. The Hexblade gets Medium Armor, Shields, and uses CHR for attack and damage modifiers with their pact weapons. That moves them closer to par with the other classes here I think. In my house rules I make this a feature of the Pact of the Blade so that all patrons can be have viable blade-locks.

Putting the Blade-lock's extra attacks, HP boosts, and bonus damage in the Invocations section though is sort of necessary. The Invocations allow you to build your Warlock as an infiltrator, warrior, ranged blaster, etc. It's very flexible. But you do have to choose. If the Blade-lock got Extra Attack, +X weapons, automagic mage armor, etc. AND Invocations on top of that they'd be ridiculously better than Valor Bard or Bladesinger.
 

The one thing all three have in common is that they are usually better off not engaging in melee at all, but casting spells instead. Once you realize that you start to wonder why you didn't go with a subclass that has features to enhance spellcasting instead of giving you melee abilities you rarely use.
 

Xeviat

Hero
Having played a Fighter/Wizard in Baldur's Gate 2, they might not be as effective as a fighter or a wizard separately, but they're definitely fun. I think a lot of that comes into 5E, where the gish builds are definitely fun to conceptualize, build, and play, but maybe they aren't the best.

Which is weird, because the Paladin is awesome. So why is it that the full casters, who have just as much melee capability until 11th level, seem weaker?

Blade Warlocks have an issue with competing against Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast; that's my biggest complaint about the way the class is set up. I'm sorely tempted to finish up my work on my 1-5th level spell Warlock and turn it into a half-caster so I can beef up it's at-will blasting and slashing and be done with it. But that's something else.

I've seen a Valor Bard played. He was quite effective. But, he wasn't really able to weave magic and weapons together at the same time, aside from some bonus action spells like Healing Word. The player felt like he was a cleric sometimes and a weak fighter other times. We switched out Extra Attack for War Magic and he felt a little more Gishy after that. I'd do the same for the Bladesinger.
 

cooperjer

Explorer
This is a very timely post. I have a player that is asking to switch from a bladelock to the UA Hexblade. We're working out the details on what to do for the level 14 feature. We removed the level 6 feature, Ghost Hound, because it lead to using Eldritch Blast as a primary attack, and we both wanted to force the subclass down the melee path. We bumped the level 9 feature to level 6 and the level 14 feature to level 9.

As suggestions for the level 14 feature, I looked at the Bladesinger, Champion fighter, and War cleric.

The greatest challenge with the hex blade is the lack of a need to manage resources. HP is one resource that is used by fighters and other martials. I feel the Hexblade should also be put into the position of managing that resource, but the HP recovery is to outstanding when the warlock takes the invocation that allows moving the hex to a new creature when the previous creature dies.
 

The one thing all three have in common is that they are usually better off not engaging in melee at all, but casting spells instead. Once you realize that you start to wonder why you didn't go with a subclass that has features to enhance spellcasting instead of giving you melee abilities you rarely use.

Because you like to play a gish. And because it is not always your choice how you engage in combat.
 


Lanliss

Explorer
One thing that you need to look at is how MAD the class is. For instance, with the Bladesinger getting +INT added to Concentration, AC and damage they are not MAD at all. They can pump INT and not worry about the rest as much. A blade-lock as written is crippled by MAD issues.

However I read the Arcana Unearthed article on the Warlock Hexblade as trying to fix the shortcoming of the blade-lock class. The Hexblade gets Medium Armor, Shields, and uses CHR for attack and damage modifiers with their pact weapons. That moves them closer to par with the other classes here I think. In my house rules I make this a feature of the Pact of the Blade so that all patrons can be have viable blade-locks.

Putting the Blade-lock's extra attacks, HP boosts, and bonus damage in the Invocations section though is sort of necessary. The Invocations allow you to build your Warlock as an infiltrator, warrior, ranged blaster, etc. It's very flexible. But you do have to choose. If the Blade-lock got Extra Attack, +X weapons, automagic mage armor, etc. AND Invocations on top of that they'd be ridiculously better than Valor Bard or Bladesinger.

I think they should have a basic extra attack built in, but agree that a bunch of their stuff should be in invocations. If they had a few different defense-focused invocations, for varying armor types, they would be able to make the choice of only grabbing the Light-armor (Armor of shadows in this case), and be able to choose other things as well. I also think the Life-drinker invocation should remain, because it feels right that it is an invocation. Basically, the only bug I see is the extra attack being made an invocation. That is just my opinion though, others might want the three to be more similar classes.

This is a very timely post. I have a player that is asking to switch from a bladelock to the UA Hexblade. We're working out the details on what to do for the level 14 feature. We removed the level 6 feature, Ghost Hound, because it lead to using Eldritch Blast as a primary attack, and we both wanted to force the subclass down the melee path. We bumped the level 9 feature to level 6 and the level 14 feature to level 9.

As suggestions for the level 14 feature, I looked at the Bladesinger, Champion fighter, and War cleric.

The greatest challenge with the hex blade is the lack of a need to manage resources. HP is one resource that is used by fighters and other martials. I feel the Hexblade should also be put into the position of managing that resource, but the HP recovery is to outstanding when the warlock takes the invocation that allows moving the hex to a new creature when the previous creature dies.

I like some of the hexblade, the parts that make it a better gish, but dislike a lot of it too, like the Curse. I am not a fan of Hex/Hunter's mark because they are bland, and most often amount to +damage. I would rather have seen the crit 19/20 made into an Invocation for the Blade pact, with something like a 9-15th level requirement, and the rest scrapped. I like the proficiency in Medium armor and shields, but don't feel it is required to make the bladelock function on the same level as the other two. I think they should get something else like the Armor of Hexes, but not that, because that seems like a really odd mechanic. I would just copy from the Bladesinger and make it +Cha to AC, with a limit of +3-4 since it would be always-on instead of a limited resource.

I think a 14th level +cha to AC (max 3) and a built-in extra attack would level the field. Either that, or there should be multiple non-stacking defense boosting Invocations. One that gives the equivalent of heavy armor (I would say as an action), one that gives a Shield pact-weapon (Probably as a bonus action), and they already have mage armor to cover a Light armor equivalent. This gives flexibility to building your preferred Bladelock, the way it should be, instead of having a single basically-required invocation if you want to actually play in melee.

Factoring in my preferred changes, extra attack and +cha to AC (max 3) I will check this out again.

Attacks: 2x whatever weapon they choose+5 (+10 with an invocation)= minimum damage of 12 (22), Maximum of 34(44), which seems alright in comparison. The maximum is a bit higher than Bard with a rapier, but Bard also has access to things like Shield or Haste, so Valor can get that +2 AC and 3rd attack in as well. As a gut feeling, they are roughly equal.

Armor of Shadows: 13+dex(Mage armor), +Cha (Max 3), max AC of 21. Higher than a Monks max AC, but does not require as much investment since you could just stop at 16 Cha. I might limit that to a max of 2 instead.

Light Armor: Max of 12+dex+Cha(3)=20, more within bounds, but still high considering someone like a Rogue will be a few points lower. Although, rogue also has high DPR, so I am not sure how to judge this. I still prefer the 2 limit at this point.

Medium armor: Max 15+Dex(2)+Cha(3)= 20, higher than medium armor characters with a shield. Too tanky I think.

So, after that flow-of-thought style running of numbers, I would rather see +cha (max 2) to AC, and maybe something else, since a +2 to AC feels pretty small at level 14. This might be where I would include something like the third rider of the Hexblade curse.

+cha to AC (Max 2)
When you kill an enemy with your pact weapon you regain hit points equal to your Warlock level+ your Charisma Modifier.

That feels like an alright boost at 14th, right?

Sorry for rambling...
 

Lanliss

Explorer
I just realized that I am basically derailing this into another "Make Blade act better" Thread. Not my goal, I still genuinely want to see the three compared without Bias. Only problem is, there are a lot of X-Factors like Healing spells on the Bard, or Different Invocation options on the Warlock. A lot of numbers to crunch.
 

Because you like to play a gish. And because it is not always your choice how you engage in combat.

Ypu may set out to play a gish, but then after a while you realize that you rarely use your sword because in combat there's usually at least one spell that would be extremely useful right now to turn the situation in your party's favor.
 

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